I'm in Wisconsin this week. I can check the local market for bread flour. My sister found KA bread flour at Harvest Time on Lawrence Avenue a few weeks ago. Brought me two bags.

HarvesTime does not have a lot of space so the flour mix is erratic. Last Thursday Tony's Lincoln Square store had the flour shelves full including large bags on the bottom shelf. They have been well stocked with Ceresota all-purpose flour in five and 25 pound bags for weeks. Ceresota all-purpose flour has fairly high protein level, comparable to KA from what I have heard. Tony's had a good supply of Pillsbury bread flour but no Gold Medal or KA bread flour, just all-purpose. The pipeline does seem to be refilling.

ekreider wrote:HarvesTime does not have a lot of space so the flour mix is erratic. Last Thursday Tony's Lincoln Square store had the flour shelves full including large bags on the bottom shelf. They have been well stocked with Ceresota all-purpose flour in five and 25 pound bags for weeks. Ceresota all-purpose flour has fairly high protein level, comparable to KA from what I have heard. Tony's had a good supply of Pillsbury bread flour but no Gold Medal or KA bread flour, just all-purpose. The pipeline does seem to be refilling.

Huh. My post seems to have disappeared. Apologies if I end up double-posting.

You are right about Ceresota! I have seen it in stores for weeks but assumed it was a run-of-the-mill mid-tier protein content AP flour. They do not list a protein content on their website, but when Cook's Illustrated did a round-up of common AP flours, they found that this flour was 11.4%=11.8% protein content (compared to 11.7% from KA AP).

I also bought a 10 lb bag of Organic Great River Milling AP flour at Costco after reading on their website that this flour is 11.5% protein content (+/- 0.7% which seems rather high). I have not tried baking bread with this flour yet.

It seems the main thing KA AP might have going for it is a consistent protein content versus the range for some of these other options.

gastro gnome wrote:You are right about Ceresota! I have seen it in stores for weeks but assumed it was a run-of-the-mill mid-tier protein content AP flour. They do not list a protein content on their website, but when Cook's Illustrated did a round-up of common AP flours, they found that this flour was 11.4%=11.8% protein content (compared to 11.7% from KA AP).

Ceresota is the flour used by Hoosier Mama. I know this because they sell 5-pound bags of it through their "Isolation General Store". They also offer KA bread flour, by the way (and it seems to be currently in stock).

cilantro wrote:

gastro gnome wrote:You are right about Ceresota! I have seen it in stores for weeks but assumed it was a run-of-the-mill mid-tier protein content AP flour. They do not list a protein content on their website, but when Cook's Illustrated did a round-up of common AP flours, they found that this flour was 11.4%=11.8% protein content (compared to 11.7% from KA AP).

Ceresota is the flour used by Hoosier Mama. I know this because they sell 5-pound bags of it through their "Isolation General Store". They also offer KA bread flour, by the way (and it seems to be currently in stock).

I reverted back to Cersota and Gold Medal/ Pilsbury unbleached for non-bread- baking with the KA coming at a premium since the shelter at home commenced. Cersota is what I used before I switched to KA for general baking. It's been great to feed my starter and make cookies so far.

I really like the Heritage Spring Patent Artisan flour from Gordon Food Services for bread and pizza dough. It's not bleached/bromated. Protein content is 12.5%.
A couple caveats:
--It is sold in 50 lb bags (for $17.99)
--I haven't seen in carried in their stores. You have to call the store nearest you and have them send it over from the warehouse (usually 1-2 days before you want to pick it up). This always seems to generate some confusion on the other end of the phone but eventually works out. One of the times I called, they told me I needed an item number (which they were eventually able to look up for me--it's 798801).

I don't understand the huge concern about protein content. I have made bread with KA all purpose flour and KA bread flour and just don't notice that much difference. What does bread flour do for you guys that I am missing.

lougord99 wrote:I don't understand the huge concern about protein content. I have made bread with KA all purpose flour and KA bread flour and just don't notice that much difference. What does bread flour do for you guys that I am missing.

Bread flour has more gluten and produces a chewier bread. It is preferred for sourdough. There are many bread recipes that use AP.

thaiobsessed wrote:I really like the Heritage Spring Patent Artisan flour from Gordon Food Services for bread and pizza dough. It's not bleached/bromated. Protein content is 12.5%.
A couple caveats:
--It is sold in 50 lb bags (for $17.99)
--I haven't seen in carried in their stores. You have to call the store nearest you and have them send it over from the warehouse (usually 1-2 days before you want to pick it up). This always seems to generate some confusion on the other end of the phone but eventually works out. One of the times I called, they told me I needed an item number (which they were eventually able to look up for me--it's 798801).

I'm almost positive I saw this at the GFS in Evanston. Not sure it was a 25lb or 50lb bag.

I found yeast in my local store near the butter, of all things. It's refrigerated. Little tiny cakes of FRESH instant yeast, 1 inch square. Looks for all the world like those airplane cheese cubes, wrapped in foil.

Flour seems to be hit and miss, so if you think you are going to need a bag, and you see one, pick it up. There might be none, there might be tons of some brand I have never heard of, there might be KA Organic unbleached Bread flour... I haven't even seen, yet, the KA 3# plastic bags of AP flour... (in Portland, OR)

Made two loaves of bread yesterday with the no knead method (not sourdough), following Kenji's %. Learned something very important. Most electronic kitchen scales do not weigh reliably under 10 grams. Result, both loaves are way way way to salty. Also, one doubled in size in 3 hours.

I then read on Serious Eats about scales, where this was mentioned. They recommended if you need to weigh that small of amounts to get a jeweller's scale. So I'm looking at one of those. They also pointed to an article there by Stella Parks who says for cooking, just use measuring spoons for those small amounts. Also she recommends checking your measuring spoons as they can vary, a lot.

Sigh, the older I get, the less I know.

Xexo wrote:. . . if you need to weigh that small of amounts to get a jeweller's scale. So I'm looking at one of those.

I don't typically use mine for weighing ingredients (pocket knives, long story) but I bought this one and I'm really happy with it. When I bought it back in March, it was only $11, though. They're over $14 atm.

Xexo wrote:Sigh, the older I get, the less I know.

Ain't it the truth?

=R=

Kenji's recipe calls for 300g of flour and 4.5g of salt for 1 loaf of bread. I can see how at that level measuring the salt is a bit tricky. I scale his recipe up to 800g of flour and make 2 large loaves, which I freeze. It's hardly any more work than the 1 small loaf. At that level, it is 12g of salt and 8g of yeast which seem to measure fine. I definitely would not use less salt than he calls for. I actually increase the salt from 12g to 14g which I find a better proportion.

I use this scale : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004164SRA/?t ... ippilot-20 .
It seems to be accurate at these levels, but I'm not sure it is.

lougord99 wrote:Kenji's recipe calls for 300g of flour and 4.5g of salt for 1 loaf of bread. I can see how at that level measuring the salt is a bit tricky. I scale his recipe up to 800g of flour and make 2 large loaves, which I freeze. It's hardly any more work than the 1 small loaf. At that level, it is 12g of salt and 8g of yeast which seem to measure fine. I definitely would not use less salt than he calls for. I actually increase the salt from 12g to 14g which I find a better proportion.

I use this scale : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004164SRA/?t ... ippilot-20 .
It seems to be accurate at these levels, but I'm not sure it is.

Thanks! I'm going to try your amounts today.

lougord99 wrote:Kenji's recipe calls for 300g of flour and 4.5g of salt for 1 loaf of bread. I can see how at that level measuring the salt is a bit tricky. I scale his recipe up to 800g of flour and make 2 large loaves, which I freeze. It's hardly any more work than the 1 small loaf. At that level, it is 12g of salt and 8g of yeast which seem to measure fine. I definitely would not use less salt than he calls for. I actually increase the salt from 12g to 14g which I find a better proportion.

Wow! that's a lot of yeast! my no-knead recipe calls for 645g flour, 525g water, 12g salt and 1.5G yeast. Worked for me in Chicago and now in Denver. Here in Denver the rise is faster and I tend to move the rise to the fridge overnight to help develop more flavor.
My sourdough version is 645g flour, 500g water, 150G starter and 15g salt. My starter is made of 50g old starter, 50g water & 50g flour. All my bread is 50/50 WW/BF

I just mixed up a batch using the weights provided by lougord99 and at first I thought I messed it up. I'm used to using the Jim Lahey weights which gives about 91% hydration but then I checked and the Kenji Lopez way is more like 70%. Hopefully I got it right.

lougord99 wrote:Kenji's recipe calls for 300g of flour and 4.5g of salt for 1 loaf of bread. I can see how at that level measuring the salt is a bit tricky. I scale his recipe up to 800g of flour and make 2 large loaves, which I freeze. It's hardly any more work than the 1 small loaf.

Couldn't you also mix up larger batches of the dry components, flour, salt, and yeast, and save a portion of the mix for later?

zoid wrote:I just mixed up a batch using the weights provided by lougord99 and at first I thought I messed it up. I'm used to using the Jim Lahey weights which gives about 91% hydration but then I checked and the Kenji Lopez way is more like 70%. Hopefully I got it right.

FWIW I would choose Lahey over Lopez-Alt anytime for bread baking. Especially a No-Knead loaf. That said 91% hydration seems terribly high for that loaf.

I measure 5g all the time on my CI/ATK suggested Oxo large capacity scale, max I believe is just about 11.5#. It measures both grams and ounces. I use it daily.

Cheers,

We'll see how the experiment turns out

Wow. I can't imagine working with a 91% hydration dough. 70% is hard enough.

ronnie_suburban wrote:I don't typically use mine for weighing ingredients (pocket knives, long story) but I bought this one and I'm really happy with it. When I bought it back in March, it was only $11, though. They're over $14 atm.

=R=

Thanks Ronnie, I'll check it out.

lougord99 wrote:Kenji's recipe calls for 300g of flour and 4.5g of salt for 1 loaf of bread...make 2 large loaves, which I freeze...

I used the amounts from his YouTube video which was a 75% hydration, 400 grams flour, 300 grams water, 10 grams salt(2 - 2.5%), and 2 grams of yeast(1/4 - 1/2%). If the weights are a bit wrong for the %, well Kenji was drinking beer while he was making the dough, but he did say it was a very forgiving recipe and not to sweat it too much.

Also, freezing bread just doesn't work for me. It changes the taste, but I could always give one away I guess. I'll check out the scale you mention. Thanks.

mhill95149 wrote:...my no-knead recipe calls for 645g flour, 525g water, 12g salt and 1.5G yeast...My sourdough version is 645g flour, 500g water, 150G starter and 15g salt. My starter is made of 50g old starter, 50g water & 50g flour. All my bread is 50/50 WW/BF

Thanks Mr. Hill. I'll have to try your proportions out as well.

pairs4life wrote:FWIW I would choose Lahey over Lopez-Alt anytime for bread baking. Especially a No-Knead loaf. That said 91% hydration seems terribly high for that loaf.

I measure 5g all the time on my CI/ATK suggested Oxo large capacity scale, max I believe is just about 11.5#. It measures both grams and ounces. I use it daily.

Cheers,

He was using the Oxo, so maybe that scale is accurate.

I did notice if I didn't tare out the weight of the flour, that it was easier to weigh out the smaller grams, but still not that accurate.

And just a note, I find I'm not ready for the really high hydration rates, as I can't shape the dough and it sticks to my hands a lot. Can't figure out how Kenji managed (others too, whose names I can't remember) in his video. Maybe I'll work up to that amount of hydration.

Xexo wrote:Also, freezing bread just doesn't work for me. It changes the taste, but I could always give one away I guess.

I think homemade frozen bread is better than store bought fresh bread.

lougord99 wrote:Kenji's recipe calls for 300g of flour and 4.5g of salt for 1 loaf of bread...make 2 large loaves, which I freeze...

We got the latest Milk Street and Cook's Illustrated this week, so I don't remember which one had this, but note that Morton Kosher salt is 4.8g/tsp, darned close to that 4.5g. Note also that Diamond Kosher salt weighed significantly less per teaspoon (2.8g, I think).

Which is why any good recipe uses weights and not volume.

lougord99 wrote:

Xexo wrote:Also, freezing bread just doesn't work for me. It changes the taste, but I could always give one away I guess.

I think homemade frozen bread is better than store bought fresh bread.

... particularly if you toast it, which is mostly what i do with frozen bread: either well toasted for breakfast with butter, or even sandwich bread i'll toast very lightly. that improves it tremendously.

Most electronic kitchen scales do not weigh reliably under 10 grams.

The problem with digital kitchen scales is not that they measure small amounts any less well than they measure large amounts. The problem is that their resolution i.e., plus or minus one half of the smallest whole unit displayed, may be inadequate for the purpose of precisely measuring very small quantities. If a scale can display measurements to the nearest whole gram, the actual weight of something is within an error margin of ± 0.5 g of the weight displayed. In other words, there is rounding error in the weight displayed.

As that Serious Eats article explains, the advantage of a jeweller's scale over a kitchen scale is its higher resolution, e.g., 0.01 g, meaning an error margin of ± 0.005 g.

The resolution, which is a fixed error margin, is a relatively larger proportion of the total for relatively smaller weights. ± 0.5 g for a 10-g measurement is ± 5%, and the percentage increases for measurements less than 10 g. ± 0.5 g for a measurement of 2 g of yeast is ± 25%.

If you're using a digital kitchen scale, as opposed to a jeweller's scale, and you want to know how much a penny weighs, don't weigh one penny; weigh ten pennies and divide by ten. Say a penny weighs 2.5 g; the scale may display 2 g or 3 g, both of which are off by 20%. Weigh ten pennies, the scale will display 25 g, divide by 10 and you get 2.5 g. Even if the scale displays 24 g or 26 g, you divide by 10 and get 2.4 g or 2.6 g, both of which are off by only 4%.

If the exact proportions of very small weights of salt and yeast in a flour mix are important, you'd get closer if, rather than mix individual batches, you measured and thoroughly mixed the dry ingredients in larger amounts and divided the mixture into desired batch portions by weight. Just doubling the batch, as Lou suggested, reduces the error component considerably.

I must have a jeweler’s scale, it has Troy Ounces and has no problems with 0.01 grams

mhill95149 wrote:I must have a jeweler’s scale, it has Troy Ounces and has no problems with 0.01 grams

Rereading this a second time, my guess is that you mean, "the scale that I have must be a jeweller's scale, because it has troy ounces and has no problem with 0.01 grams."

The first time, I thought you meant, "A jeweller's scale has troy ounces and no problems with 0.01 grams?!? That settles it! I must have one!"

My scale does not resolve less than 2 g it wobbles back and forth
So it's fine for larger amounts but it can't tell between 8,9, or 10 g for example.
It will flicker between 8 and 10 and I know I'm "in the neighborhood".
but it's fine for my purposes for now.

I made a second batch of sourdough cinnamon raisin bread yesterday. The dough is a dream and uses starter discard. I made sure that my rectangle of dough was larger this time and was very liberal with the cinnamon sugar mixture and a mix of regular and golden raisins.

The family loves it and it makes delicious French toast.