A Beer Problem

How do I begin?

It has been festering inside me for awhile and now I have to let it out. I'm ticked off at some beer makers!

Have you out there noticed that some beer makers are distributing their product in 11.2 oz. bottles! Appalling (actually I have stronger words for this.)
I'm not happy. This is America and we get our beer in 12 oz. bottles! If the Euros and any others want to chisel on beer- let them do it somewhere else. This is just plain wrong and wreaks of pure greed. I'm mad and you should be too.

I have been casually looking at the beer data on 12 packs and making mental notes.
Some makers who are doing this. LaBatts, DAB, Spaten, and there was another German beer maker that I can't remember right now. I mentioned this to a friend and he thought it might be some sort of Euro metric thing.

B.S. IT IS GREED.

Beck's does not do this, Moosehead doesn't and I think Molson is not. St. Pauli Girl also had 12 oz. bottles.

Awhile back I had a taste for some LaBatts Blues that just happened to be on sale. Some how I notice the labeling and saw 11.2 oz. I was ticked. But the place also had a 12 pak of Moose for the same price. Guess what I bought - the Moose!

I will not support anyone doing this and will not spend my money on their product.

Thank god the craft brews aren't playing this game.

Please join me in not supporting this bad behavior. Do not purchase any 11.2 oz beer - no matter who makes it.

I'd like to get peoples comments on this so join in please. And lets spread the word. Maybe with a concerted effort we can change this behavior. Or if they refuse to do the right thing, we can impact their bottom line.

Now that would be something to raise a glass to.

It's not a Euro-centric thing. It's the same pattern that a lot of companies have adopted as an alternative, or supplement, to raising sticker prices.

I find it hard to get too worked up over stuff like this. If I were going to huff and puff about an alcohol related issue, it would be the arcane anti-consumer distribution laws that, I think, cause far more damage.

I have yet to see a U.S.-based brewer do this yet, so I am going to say it is a metric thing -- although that's not to say that some brewers based in metric countries that used to export to the U.S. in 12 oz bottles or bottle in the U.S. in 12 oz bottles are not doing this now as a cost savings (same/greater price for less volume) measure.

A short, tangential discussion on the same topic in the Makers Mark proof dilution thread here.

Matt wrote:I have yet to see a U.S.-based brewer do this yet

It's coming. Budweiser's doing it already.

nr706 wrote:

Matt wrote:I have yet to see a U.S.-based brewer do this yet

It's coming. Budweiser's doing it already.

I think that qualifies as "doing the world a favor."

It is simply 1/3 of a liter. Another standard size is 1/2 liter and a pint is 20 ounces so maybe it is us getting the shaft?

Hi all,

Glad to see some discussion on this. First let's correct something.

Spaten is still producing 12 oz. bottles. I don't want to hammer anyone that does not deserve it. Kudos to Spaten.
I mixed up the Ss. Stiegl is selling 11.2 oz. bottles. Bad boys. Please don't support Stiegl.

Now to what our moderator said. While you might be right on these anti-consumer distribution laws, I don't go to the grocery store or liquor store and reach on the shelf and pick up a pak of consumer laws. I pick up some beer, so that's why I started the thread.

nr706 - I read that article. All is true. Cereal cos. coffee cos. etc have stared doing this...and I hate it. When it hit the beer I erupted. As for Bud, I agree no great loss. Lousy beer and now a lousy co. But it should still upset you for the principle involved. They are still a large icon brewery too. Just horrible business practices and a disdain for their customers.



Let's bring some accountability back to American business. Support those that support you and treat you right and with respect. To all others, let them go out of business and fail!

Wally V

wallyV wrote:
Let's bring some accountability back to American business. Support those that support you and treat you right and with respect. To all others, let them go out of business and fail!

Stop drinking foreign import beers that are sold using standard metric sizings

buy beer that you enjoy and feel is worth it and don't worry about the extra .8oz. geez. relax, have a beer.

i think greed is a stretch - but you're close - it's marketing and price point driven. it could be the result of distributors hammering on these companies about pricing as well. it's a tactic that food producers have been using for years - lower the size, keep the price the same. it does appear greedy, but um, these companies aren't doing this for fun - they're changing the sizing to maintain market share and shelf space at the stores. consumers (like you) that are concerned with value and sizing need to pay attention. (like you!)

when i was a kid, gum was a dime and they carved off a 1lb block of it for you straight from the freshly harvested Hubba Bubba tree.

Different countries have different traditional bottle sizes, so I don't think the imports are trying to rip anyone off, they're simply doing what they've always done. Jamieson22 is correct that 330ml is a standard size in many European countries, which explains the 11.2 ounce imports that you're seeing. If a US brewer switches to a smaller sized bottle that's completely different.

Here's a few of thetypical beer bottle sizes per Wikipedia:

The Canadian stubby bottle was traditionally 341 ml (11.5 U.S. fl oz; 12.0 imp fl oz) while the U.S. longneck was 355 ml (12.0 U.S. fl oz; 12.5 imp fl oz).....

Belgian beer is usually packaged in 11.2 U.S. fl oz (331.2 ml; 11.7 imp fl oz) bottles in four or six packs, 750 ml (26.4 imp fl oz; 25.4 U.S. fl oz) bottles similar to those used for champagne.....

British brewers used a standard design of bottle, known as the London Brewers' Standard.... Pints, defined as 568 ml (20.0 imp fl oz; 19.2 U.S. fl oz), and half-pints, or 284 ml (10.0 imp fl oz; 9.6 U.S. fl oz) were the most common, but some brewers also bottled in nip (1/3-pint) and quart (2-pint) sizes. .....around the turn of the 21st century the industry turned away from refillable bottles and UK beer bottles are now all one-trip, and most are 330 ml (11.2 U.S. fl oz; 11.6 imp fl oz) in volume.....

In Australia, the term "longneck stubby" is applied to bottles of this style with 330 and 375 ml (11.6 and 13.2 imp fl oz; 11.2 and 12.7 U.S. fl oz) capacity

Of course you can avoid this problem entirely by sticking to 40 ouncers.

There are two separate issues here. WallyV is concerned about a particular beer being switched from a 12oz bottle to an 11.2oz bottle. Whether you think this is the first sign of the fall of Western Civilization, or couldn't care less about it, it's a distinct issue from the fact that bottle sizes are traditionally different from one country to another.

Darren72 wrote:There are two separate issues here. WallyV is concerned about a particular beer being switched from a 12oz bottle to an 11.2oz bottle. Whether you think this is the first sign of the fall of Western Civilization, or couldn't care less about it, it's a distinct issue from the fact that bottle sizes are traditionally different from one country to another.

I don't see any mention that the sizes were switched, only that some beers are distributed in 11.2oz bottles.

See the Budweiser link above. I thought WallyV was complaining that the bottle sizes are smaller than they used to be, but a quick search indicates that LaBatts has always been 11.2 (or 11.5, depending on the site) oz. In any case, the size of the bottle seems to be the least important thing to worry about when selecting beer.

jmc wrote:i think greed is a stretch - but you're close - it's marketing and price point driven. it could be the result of distributors hammering on these companies about pricing as well. it's a tactic that food producers have been using for years - lower the size, keep the price the same. it does appear greedy, but um, these companies aren't doing this for fun - they're changing the sizing to maintain market share and shelf space at the stores. consumers (like you) that are concerned with value and sizing need to pay attention. (like you!)

Yeah, this looks to me like just plain, regular-old inflation. Maker's Mark was a combination of greed and stupidity - this most likely just reflects increasing commodity prices worldwide.

There's some indication that biofuel subsidies are leading to more planting for fuel instead of food, lowering supplies as demand is unchanged, but it's mostly anecdotal and the data is rather iffy.

wallyV wrote:Beck's does not do this

Look a little more carefully at the Beck's label. Sure, it says 12 ounces—and maybe that's all that matters—but you'll notice the stuff that's sold here is no longer brewed in Germany. The six-pack carton boasts "German Quality" and "Brewed Under the German Purity Law of 1516." On the bottle's label, "Originated in Bremen, Germany" is prominent, but in small white letters on a silver background (making it almost invisible) you'll see "Product of USA • Brauerei Beck & Co • St Louis, MO." In other words, it's just another Anheuser-Busch product, though at a higher price.

While I can't get even slightly worked up about selling imported beer in its traditionally sized bottle, I find this sort of deceptive labeling to be reprehensible. I haven't bought any Beck's in years and most certainly won't in the future. I'll look for a real German beer, most likely in the standard 330 mL bottle.

Check out Foster's. It's Canadian for beer, mate.

Rene G wrote:

wallyV wrote:Beck's does not do this

Look a little more carefully at the Beck's label. Sure, it says 12 ounces—and maybe that's all that matters—but you'll notice the stuff that's sold here is no longer brewed in Germany. The six-pack carton boasts "German Quality" and "Brewed Under the German Purity Law of 1516." On the bottle's label, "Originated in Bremen, Germany" is prominent, but in small white letters on a silver background (making it almost invisible) you'll see "Product of USA • Brauerei Beck & Co • St Louis, MO." In other words, it's just another Anheuser-Busch product, though at a higher price.

While I can't get even slightly worked up about selling imported beer in its traditionally sized bottle, I find this sort of deceptive labeling to be reprehensible. I haven't bought any Beck's in years and most certainly won't in the future. I'll look for a real German beer, most likely in the standard 330 mL bottle.

Today a $20 million settlement was approved in a class-action lawsuit over Anheuser-Busch's deceptive packaging of Beck's beer.

AP in NYT wrote:The settlement resolved a lawsuit filed in 2013 by several Beck’s drinkers who noticed there was almost no visible "made in the U.S.A." language on the beer’s packaging even though it has been brewed in St. Louis since 2012. Labels instead emphasize the beer’s supposed "German Quality," and that it was made under the "German Purity Law of 1516" and originated in Bremen, Germany.

More information at http://www.becksbeersettlement.com.

AP in NYT wrote:Labels instead emphasize the beer’s supposed "German Quality," and that it was made under the "German Purity Law of 1516"

And, of course, that's not even strictly accurate. The German Purity Law as drafted in 1516 only allowed for water, malted barley and hops in beer. So any beer containing anything else would be prohibited. In 1516, no one knew what yeast was, or its role in fermentation (Louis Pasteur figured that out in the 1850s). So the fact that beers in 1516 also included yeast means that they were all in violation of the letter (but not the spirit) of that law. Perhaps there should be a reference to the modern interpretation of the 1516 Purity Law.

Metric, schmetric, beer size has nothing to do with measuring units! It's pure greed period and if you believe otherwise your wrong. Brewers may tell you it's all about the metric system, however that's crap. If you think about it they are selling a lesser amount of beer at roughly the same price? It doesn't take a business genius to get it! It's all about the bottom line period. I agree with some of the earlier post, it's greed and the only thing a consumer can do is to NOT buy it no matter how good it might be. I can promise you that in the final analysis the consumer can win this game if its played together.

European brewers have been putting beer in bottles that are 1/3L (those pesky11.2ozers), 500mL, and 750mL for like 150 years longer than the US has been a country, so there's really no room for outrage here. Since someone mentioned Stiegl...

Stiegl 6pack / 11.2oz btls = $10 = $0.14881/oz
Firestone Pivo 6/12 cans = $10 = $0.13888
Half Acre Pony Pils 4/16 cans = $10 = $0.156/oz
Maplewood Pulaski Pils 16.9oz single bottle = $3.99 = $0.24/oz
Destihl Bela Imperial Pils 1/16.9 = $10 = $0.59/oz

Prices are Binny's website, without Binny's card discount. The Stiegl is the 2nd-best value and it's only 2nd least expensive on a per-ounce basis by less than a penny, which when we allow for it being shipped from Austria and for it being better than the others (all fine breweries, no knock on them), the Stiegl is a slam-dunk no-brainer as both a value- and a quality-based decision.

jhdouglass wrote:European brewers have been putting beer in bottles that are 1/3L (those pesky11.2ozers), 500mL, and 750mL for like 150 years longer than the US has been a country, so there's really no room for outrage here.

Pretty sure 1776 predates 1795 (and certainly not even close to being 150 years later), but then I did have a public education, so I could be wrong.

jhdouglass wrote:European brewers have been putting beer in bottles that are 1/3L (those pesky11.2ozers), 500mL, and 750mL for like 150 years longer than the US has been a country,

Wikipedia wrote:The first practical realisation of the metric system came in 1799

So I guess the US didn't become a country until like 1949.

That's cute, but my point stands. There was a time in history when three things happened around the same time. Bohemia created pils, trains were running all over Europe, and glass was affordable and no longer a thing of the aristocracy. Since then Europe has had more or less standardized glasses and glass sizes. Measurement systems have existed since at least 3000BC and they're much more like the European metric system than what we have in the US.

Europe also has the benefit of their drinking culture and customs not being interrupted by Prohibition, which largely led to the US having a terrible drinking culture that resulted in mountains of flavored vodka and a beer culture that prized adjuncts that drove affordability over flavor and character. As Americans, we have no, like, high road in drinking beer over the Germans or Belgians or Brits or Scots. They're not ripping anyone off with 11.2oz beers, any more than, say, they're giving beer away in 16.9oz bottles.

jhdouglass wrote:...but my point stands.

If you're referring to your claim that Europe had standardized on beer serving sizes about the time of the invention of Pilsner in Bohemia (In 1842 when Bavarian brewer Josef Groll was recruited to move to Plzeň to invent a new beer), you are incorrect. Metrication in Germany came slowly and city by city during the 19th century. Beer was sold by the Kanne, Nösel (half a Kanne), Halbnösel, and Viertelnösel. A Nösel varied by city from a low of about 402 ml in Bremen to 602 ml in Leipzig. To further vex advocates of standardization, the Nösel also varied depending on whether it referenced wine, beer, or some other liquid.

I believe your claim "Measurement systems have existed since at least 3000BC and they're much more like the European metric system than what we have in the US," is in error, too, unless you believe the ancient Mesopotamian sexagesimal system S' (used for measuring beer, btw) was as easy to calculate in one's head as decimal. The first standardized system didn't come until 2150 BCE in the Akkadian Empire under the aggressively nerdy Naram-Sin who established the standard Royal Gur-cube, a cuboid of water measuring roughly 6m x 6m x .5m. (A pretty butch serving of ale, even for me.)

I regret I must bring you even more bad news: the Ten Gallon Hat only holds 3 quarts, per The Stetson Hat Company.

My point was that the Euros have had the liter measurement for a very very long time (I have no interest in making hyper-nerdy points about exactly when in the interest of being right on the internet) and that anyone whose panties are bunched over the size of a Euro beer on the shelf should just kind of get over themselves.

The problem here is: Similar to what happened to small breweries in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Illinois in the early 1970s; the large(r) brewery's economy of scale - as in having a big brewery promoting a beer which it may be suffering a small deficit as far as its benefit to the big brewery's bottom line, succeeds in capturing the audience for the small brewery's product due to these practises. Upon the closure of the small brewery, the price for the same beer which was proferred prior to the small brewery's closure, escalates more than 100% because there is no longer any competition from that brewery [I.E.: Jack up the price. There's no competition. This lasts to this day when a new startup airline begins service in a city pair dominated by a major airline.]
I worry, and I bet the Brewers Association worries about this also. What would the B.A. do when a non-independent craftbeer brewery blows past the bottom line for the price of its craftbeer beer versus that of a brewery associated with the B.A.?
[I.E.: When ABiB offers a 12-pack of Goose Island beer for $8.99, when other craftbeer breweries would admit they lose money on a 12-pack of its beer going to $10.99]
Will craftbrewers brew a beer designed to stave off the macro invasion? Or will they dig in and insist that their craftbeers are better than the ones being foisted out by the macro brewers? -All this time, the macro is running ads promoting its craftbeer offering-, and may even engage in social media that the anti-tweets aimed at it are from people out of it.
This is a complex, yet intriguing topic. Follow it.

jhdouglass wrote:My point was that the Euros have had the liter measurement for a very very long time (I have no interest in making hyper-nerdy points about exactly when in the interest of being right on the internet)...

I have known "for a very very long time" (since yesterday morning at 10:28 AM, anyway) that any knowledge system based on a logic of "P ∧ ∼P, FTW, LOL" and which permits the assertion that a google search is "hyper-nerdy" is one in which I won't be able to navigate the world with any reliability or confidence.
I confess, I've been playing Dr. Science and The Fact Sheriff online since the days of the Arpanet and it's time I abandon that benighted rationality and start virtue-signaling that knowing shit is for losers. So, I'll try to "get over" myself quickly, and will undertake to assume the epistemology of a millennial with a contrived personality: I will stipulate that ever since King John sat down with the lads in a shebeen at Runnymede, got drunk as a lord, and sealed the Metric Carta, the Euros have been running an inverse Moore's Law of beer: higher prices for smaller quantities according to some simple differential equation that Yanks like me can't deal with because we're busy getting perspective.
But permit me a last glance from my superannuated worldview: Sexagesimal rocks on.

Choey wrote:I will stipulate that...higher prices for smaller quantities

Except for the part about the Austrian import pils above being less expensive per ounce generally speaking than the US craft versions that are about 1/300th as old recipe- and execution-wise. That part that kinda debunks the whole argument that these beers are more expensive for less, which they are most certainly not. You can get a 12-pack of Veltins Pils bottles at Binny's for $10.99. That's a buck more than half the amount of Oskar Blues pils.