dishwashers

I like us better than the GardenWeb appliance forums, so here goes:

Anyone have a standard under counter (24 x 34 x 24)ish dishwasher they love? Early 90s Kitchenaid is wearing out, and there are many new models and features (in addition to efficiencies) I don't yet have a good handle on.

Clean dishes, clearance for average cutting boards (for peace-of-mind disinfecting post-pork), and low maintenance are the only hopes. Miele gets a lot of play on other sites, but is $1000+ really necessary to get hot clean dishes from a machine these days? Thanks for any suggestions!

I have had good luck with Kenmore Dishwashers from Sears. I have had one for about six years and am pleased with it. I like it enough to have bought my sister the exact same model when she moved two years ago. As I remember, around 500.00 installed.

We have a Kenmore Elite model #16693200 that was in our house when we bought it 7 years ago. It does a great job of washing dishes, and is really quiet. About a year ago the keypad on it broke and we had tech come by to fix it. It cost $135 or so to repair it (including visit, taxes, etc.). Other than that we've never had a problem with it, and are very happy with it.

On my list of attributes I would be looking for are quietness. Unfortunately, quieter models tend to cost more.

we have had a Bosch for about 6yrs that works great, very quiet, like the adjustable rack(and removable for big pans), would buy another for sure!

We have a Bosch also and love it. Very quiet. Ours is about 8 years old now and cost around $500 at the time, it's their very basic model. We had one service call on it and it turned out to be my fault because I used too much of a soap they don't recommend and it over flowed.

I just did a lot of research on dishwashers for our kitchen remodel. You are right that Miele is considered the best, or among the best, but costs a lot. In the next tier are Kitchenaid and Bosch.

Nearly all dishwashers are equally effective as one another cleaning dishes.

Higher priced models tend to be quieter, have more features (including more cycles), and have aesthetic touches (stainless interior, exterior, hidden controls, etc.)

If you are willing to spend $500-$1000, my recommendation is to focus on KA and Bosch. Look through their lines and figure out at what point you don't want to pay for an additional feature. I don't have our model number handy, but we basically decided we didn't need the stepped-up model that had 2-3 extra wash cycles since we really only use one cycle anyways. The product guides will also list the decibel levels of each model.

The two major differences between Bosch and KA are (1) Bosch doesn't have a heated dry cycle. This saves a little energy. Some people on Gardenweb report that this is a big problem for them; others say they don't notice it. We picked a KA for this reason. (2) Bosch dishwashers have about 2 inches less depth. Both KA and Bosch fit into a standard undercounter cabinet, but the KA is a little longer.

I think it is good idea to buy a dishwasher made by a company that has a focus on dishwashers (and buy a stove by a company that has a focus on stoves, etc.). There is a nice brand advisor at http://applianceadvisor.com/content/brand-advisor This site will also help you figure out who manufactured a dishwasher that is ultimately branded by a different company.

We bought a KA for our kitchen remodel a few years ago, but due to someone's error*, it didn't fit the area that had been built for it. We ended up going with the equivalent Bosch unit, which fit in the opening that had been created just fine. We've been nothing but happy with it ever since. It's quiet and does a great job cleaning anything we've ever put in there.

+1 for Bosch

* Did the architect draw it wrong on the blueprint or did the carpenter build it wrong? We'll never know for sure.

Steve, were the cabinets European? It sounds like they made the opening 23-5/8" wide instead of 24" to accommodate the 60cm Bosch DW. If the front panel was made for that, it would be a pain to retrofit and maintain the reveals.

I agree with the others that the KA and Kenmore are great DW's. The Miele is great but hard to afford for most. The Bosch are nice but as mentioned, they are very finicky with regards to detergent and there have been complaints about their cleaning of plastic items.

Octarine wrote:Steve, were the cabinets European? It sounds like they made the opening 23-5/8" wide instead of 24" to accommodate the 60cm Bosch DW. If the front panel was made for that, it would be a pain to retrofit and maintain the reveals.

I agree with the others that the KA and Kenmore are great DW's. The Miele is great but hard to afford for most. The Bosch are nice but as mentioned, they are very finicky with regards to detergent and there have been complaints about their cleaning of plastic items.

No. The cabinets were made in the good ole' USA. The problem wasn't the width of the opening, it was the depth. The KA stuck out nearly an inch too far for us to mount the custom front panel that was supposed to fit flush with the rest of the cabinets.

Santander -

I have a KA I bought for the remodel a year - maybe closer to two years now ago. I let the wife pick out the dishwasher since I'm the cook. I made the decisions about the cooktop, the oven, and the hood. If I were to do it over again, I'd probably not have spent so much on the dishwasher. I think first, you have to figure if you want American or Euro. Euro usually don't have on board heaters, or food grinders, so they are usually quiter. American models usually have those features so they are usually noisier. The KA we bought had a noise rating that was great, and a bunch of doo dads on it - like the "Pro Scrub" feature that we've used exactly once so far. I think we were kind of thinking that KA as a name brand is solid, and trustworthy. So, we got it on sale, blah blah blah, looks nice, blah blah blah, pro scrub, adjustable racks. When we got it, it was certainly quieter than we had expected. It has gotten noticeably louder, and about 6 months ago, the main board blew out. Brown burn marks on it. Fix was 100 bux or so. The soap dispenser currently does not open when it's supposed to, so we have to throw a detergent tab in a few minutes after we start it. The little motor thingie behind the soap dispenser is fried - melted, plain as day. Found a few appliance fix it forums that showed me exactly where to look, and pictures of others who had the same exact problems (though not specific to KA, mind you.) I would assume that most KA dishwashers would be fine, but I gotta tell you. If I were to do it over again, I'd have gotten a Kenmore or a Frigidaire or Whirlpool. If I'm not mistaken, KA is one of those companies that just slaps their logo on someone else's product. The racks on mine seem cheaper / shoddier than what I would expect from the KA name brand. Maybe it's just me. Have a KA fridge as well. Drawers seem cheap and shoddy on that thing too. The DW list price was a hair over a grand, but I just don't think I'd spend that much on a KA again. IMO, I'd stick with a 600 dollar Frigidaire, Whirlpool, or Kenmore if I had to do it again.

I'd go with adjustable shelves if you do a lot of tall glasses or parties where you wanna wash 30 full size plates at one time.

Food grinder for piece of mind (though many say it simply is not an issue.) It is an issue when somethnig gets stuck in the Euro brands food catch though. If you do go Euro, you might wanna pay attention to where the food catch is. If it's easy to get to, then it's not that big of a deal to clean it if needed.

On Board Heater if you want to put your dishes away right after they are done. The Euro models use stainless steel tubs for quicker evaporation as their usual drying method.

The KA model we have has the stainless tub, the controls are on the front. Again, KA are probably ok for the most part, we also used Consumer Reports to help us pick, but this one left a bad taste in my mouth, and I just don't see the benefits of spending the extra money for it compared to the other brands. Just my thoughts. Good Luck.

This is fantastic intel - my thanks to all. Probably checking out Bosch and (carefully) KA models in person this week.

seebee wrote:I would assume that most KA dishwashers would be fine, but I gotta tell you. If I were to do it over again, I'd have gotten a Kenmore or a Frigidaire or Whirlpool. If I'm not mistaken, KA is one of those companies that just slaps their logo on someone else's product.

Actually, you have it backwards.

KA, Whirlpool, Maytag, and a few other lines are all part of the same company. There is brand differentiation across the various lines. But it is simply incorrect that KA slaps logos on someone else's products.

That honor goes to .... Kenmore. Kenmore is Sears brand. Every Kenmore is made by another company.

Frigidaire/Electrolux is a separate company, with Frigidaire being the lower-end and Electrolux and Electrolux Icon being the higher end.

It's too bad you had a bad experience. If you read Gardenweb enough you'll see that someone's had a bad experience with every single brand. So it is better to look at overall reliability. I don't like Consumer Reports, but for what it's worth they rate KA in the middle of the pack in terms of overall reliability, nearly identical to Jenn Air, Frigidaire, Maytag, and not statistically distinguishable from the top-rated Hot Point, Whirlpool, and Kenmore.

Bottom line is that you could get a dud with a lot of models. The main manufacturers (all those listed above are major players) are not that different from one another in terms of average reliability. If you live in the Chicago area you shouldn't have any trouble finding a good authorized repair center. Make your choice based on features and looks.

Darren72 -
I have absolutely no reason to doubt you are correct. I'm not really mad about my DW purchase, it's just more of a live and learn type of thing (that KA fridge, however...grrr*) Spent enough time on many appliance forums including gardenweb to know that sometimes you get a lemon, and ppl will complain more about lemons, than praise the machines that work as advertised. We factored KA's customer service track record into the decision, and I will say that their response to the first issue with the DW was exemplary. My main point inbetween sprinkling statements that KA is probably fine, was that IMO, I don't think I'd buy another one for that money. I'd probably buy a comparable feature Whirlpool, Maytag, or Kenmore.

So, amid my rambling, Darren72, thank you for correcting me. Also, is KA something of the "flagship" brand of the Whirlpool company? The repairman kinda led me to believe that my KA dishwasher is just a Whirlpool with a few extra features.

Santander, still proceed with caution. Don't think that KA is above cutting corners like every other brand. I had some preconceived notion that KA was synonymous with mildly higher end quality. I know better now.

*The fridge was my fault for saying "OK." The drawers were flimsy, and I questioned them while we were looking at it. The wife and MIL both claimed that once the drawers were filled, they would not feel so cheap. It made sense at the time. They simply suck, and are obviously a corner cutting move on KA's part. I should check on replacement parts. Maybe find some sim sized drawers that are not made out of flimsy twistable plastic.

seebee,

I have no reason to doubt what you are saying about your KA fridge, but I have one of their higher end models and I've got to say the the fit and finish is outstanding. Noting flimsy at all with our shelves and mechanically it's been working fine for five years so far. It's possible that quality varies within the product line. In any event, your advice to look closely and evaluate before buying is very sound. I found multi trips to ABT to be very useful.

Darren72 wrote:

seebee wrote:KA, Whirlpool, Maytag, and a few other lines are all part of the same company. There is brand differentiation across the various lines. But it is simply incorrect that KA slaps logos on someone else's products.

That honor goes to .... Kenmore. Kenmore is Sears brand. Every Kenmore is made by another company.

Nearly all Kenmore appliances are produced by Whirlpool. Whirlpool, Kitchenaid and Roper are all Whirlpool brands. The only exception that I am readily aware of are the garbage disposals which are made by InSinkErator in Racine.

Appliances to a certain extent are like PCs. Two or three manufacturers produce nearly all the components no matter the brand you purchase. They ship the parts to the OEMs who do most of the metal fabrication and the assembly.

And nearly every OEM squeezes the heck out of the suppliers which accounts for why appliances do not last that long these days.

stevez wrote:seebee,

I have no reason to doubt what you are saying about your KA fridge, but I have one of their higher end models and I've got to say the the fit and finish is outstanding. Noting flimsy at all with our shelves and mechanically it's been working fine for five years so far. It's possible that quality varies within the product line. In any event, your advice to look closely and evaluate before buying is very sound. I found multi trips to ABT to be very useful.

If you were to come to the house, and open and close the drawers on fridge ten times, you'd cringe at the thought. You can't "just close them" probably 50% of the time. They stick, and you have to give it a little twist to the right or left. Sounds like a minor quibble, huh? It is, but 50% of the time, I can't just grab an apple and close the drawer. 50% of the time, I can't just grab the lettuce and close the drawer. 50% of the time, I can't just grab a lime and close the drawer. 50% of the time, I can't just open a fridge door, grab what I want, and let the door close on it's own in one simple motion. NO. I have to do the shimmy shake just to close a drawer. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of life, but I just never would have expected that form this otherwise stately / sturdy looking machine. It was not a higher end appliance, but it was a higher end mid-tier appliance. Just a full sized, french door stainless steel fridge. I could have done better with a cheaper model. I won't say that all KA models are like this. I would expect that they are not. I'm only talking about my model, don't want to mislead anyone into thinking all of them are like this. But, please, beware, that KA does cut corners. If you don't believe so, come on over. You will cringe. Sometimes, when I'm flying through the kitchen either cooking and needing to get back to the wok, or trying to run out the door, and one of the drawers sticks, I start thinking about selling it for a loss and replacing it, because I know me, and eventually, those thoughts are gonna be replaced with thoughts of me taking a sledgehammer to it in a calm and calculated manner. Then I will calmy, happily, buy a new fridge, knowing that I happily exacted my revenge.

seebee wrote:If you were to come to the house, and open and close the drawers on fridge ten times, you'd cringe at the thought. You can't "just close them" probably 50% of the time. They stick, and you have to give it a little twist to the right or left. Sounds like a minor quibble, huh? It is, but 50% of the time, I can't just grab an apple and close the drawer. 50% of the time, I can't just grab the lettuce and close the drawer. 50% of the time, I can't just grab a lime and close the drawer. 50% of the time, I can't just open a fridge door, grab what I want, and let the door close on it's own in one simple motion.

Definitely a different model than ours. The one we have has the drawers mounted on cabinet-like slides. They open and roll smoothly and even auto close, if you give them a nudge. Sounds like a completely different level of product.

+1 for Bosch. Love their clothes washer/dryers too.

I recommend NOT using liquid dishwasher detergent, and never filling the cup full no matter what brand powder you use.

(I find that my glasses and dishes are dry enough to put away, but the plasticware isn't ever - on the other hand I suspect heated drying might make the plastic melt... )

BTW - knowing you have little guys - an on-board heater gets the water hot enough to sanitize sippy cups and bottles...no need for boiling anything. This was a requirement for us when we got our dishwasher.

We looked for two additional things when we bought our dishwasher: no digital controls (it is a Frigidare with a dial) as those tend to degrade around steam - but, sadly are probably are not available anymore - and a pump which circulates the water to the top rack so the bottom rack doesn't have that stupid column that reduces the inside space. Our dishwasher is noisy, but it's worked for 10 years with only one repair - and that was because I let broken glass get into the works and it killed the pump, a small fee to Joe Appliance Repair guy and it was back in working order.

I tend to be a luddite when it comes to appliances: with some obvious exceptions, I've found the more mechanical they are, the less they break down and the cheaper they are to fix.

edited for punctuation

Our Bosch has something that gives you a "sanitized" light when it is done on certain cycles (this is on the National Sanitation Foundation certified cycles, not all wash options are NSF certified). It uses the residual heat from the rinse cycle to dry the dishes (and the hot rinse is what sanitizes, it looks like). There is no heating element in the bottom, but somehow it does heat the water (claims it does so as it passes through something or other) because the stated temps it achieves is much higher than what we have our hot water heater set at.

Mhays wrote:I tend to be a luddite when it comes to appliances: with some obvious exceptions, I've found the more mechanical they are, the less they break down and the cheaper they are to fix.

Over the years, I have met a lot of designers of the kitchen appliances. They are always promoting the latest and greatest technologies in the appliances.

The problem with the electronics, IMO, is that replacing a circuit board or the LED units is generally 60%+ of replacing the whole machine.

When I am looking for new appliances, I am more interested in the opinions of the people servicing the units rather than teh designers. They have less invested.

If it was up to me, I would get rid of the dishwasher tomorrow. However, the SO has vetoed that the last few times I have brought it up.

jlawrence01 wrote: The problem with the electronics, IMO, is that replacing a circuit board or the LED units is generally 60%+ of replacing the whole machine.

Yes, exactly...and they tend to have a shorter life than the rest of the appliance as well.

We have a Fisher & Paykel dishdrawer upstairs and a Kitchenaid dishdrawer downstairs since we entertain a lot. Both same age, same 2004 install date. F & P has had four service calls since installation and Kitchenaid not a one.

+1 for the Kitchenaid in my book.

Davooda

I have a Maytag that I have not had a lick of trouble with, but it is a tad noisier than I'd like.
one design thing I don't like is the silverware basket is sort of in the front center and that decreases the number of dishes I can put in the DISH washer especially after a large gathering.
Some have the silverware thingy along a side or sort of in the door and I think that a better design.
Mine also has different heights under the top rack and thats nice because my cookie sheets and roasting pans can just slide in under one side.

Oh and I like those dishwasher dtergent "pills or tabs" I always know I have the right amount,
and I know when I'm about to run out.

Good luck finding the right one for you.

one design thing I don't like is the silverware basket is sort of in the front center and that decreases the number of dishes I can put in the DISH washer especially after a large gathering

I have a Bosch installed by the previous homeowners that I like very much, but the silverware basket is in the same location and I agree it's a drawback. Also, the racks in the Bosch don't seem to handle deep bowls like pasta bowls very well, so I can never fill it as full as I'd like. But the Bosch has run flawlessly for 6 years and is very quiet. I've also never had a problem with the lack of a food grinder, but I tend to rinse things decently before putting them in the washer.

We've had a kitchenaid (kude70, we didn't pay nearly what it seems to be going for online now..) for just about a year now and are quite happy with it. Nice features: third rack at the top, just big enough for awkwardly-shaped utensils/tongs/etc, silverware rack is on the side of the bottom drawer so it can hold a TON of plates, extremely quiet.. nearly silent even when you're a few feet away, and the dedicated "proscrub" jets at the back are great for cleaning baked mac & cheese off pyrex pans, etc.

I have a 4 year old KitchenAid at home and 2-6 year old Bosch dishwashers at my office. I'm not impressed with the Bosch at all. I have had to replace one of them, and neither do a great job of cleaning dishes, or get hot enough to dry. The KitchenAid however, cleans great and dries the dishes so that 90% of them you can put them right away. One feature for home that is really nice is delay start. Our KitchenAid is very quiet but most of the time we set it to run in the middle of the night so we never hear it at all.

I'll agree that the delay on the KA is a nice feature. Some models do have timers of some sort, my KA has a one button " 4 hour delay." No fiddling around with a clock, just one button and it runs hoever you configure it 4 hours from when you hit the button.

I never thought I would pay $1,000 for a dishwasher, and it chafed on me no end to do so, but we were complled by cabinet size (and past experience with a noisy, leaky Maytag). Six years later, I don't regret the purchase of our Miele GS892SC one iota.

Great machine in every respect; cleaning performance, capacity, quietness, reliability, durability, detergent use and efficiency are all superb.

Barring catastrophic and/or premature failure, when it needs replacement (which I'm really not expecting for quite some time), I already know that we'll suck it up and buy another Miele.