Why can't I make Ragu sauce?

I am very frustrated with this dish. I usually don't struggle this much with cooking, but I can't seem to make good Ragu sauce. (Or is it Bolognese? I am confused. Antonius - your knowledge comes to mind - explanations?)

This is the history: Sig.Other really likes the stuff. So I tried a recipe from Dean and Deluca, because it seemed the most intensely flavored, labor-intensive. It turned out like, um, reddish/kind of creamy/lumpy and Very Very Heavy. (Disclaimer: recipe called for veal and I didn't use it. I really hate to eat veal. Is this the problem? I hope not.)
Second try was Cook's Illustrated, because I thought all the explanations would help me. No. Again, it was lumpy, not really stickin' to the pasta, just basically chunks of ground meat in some tomatoe-y sauce.
Last night was Food and Wine's recipe, which called for porcini mushrooms, and I had high hopes. But in the end, it looked like regrettable 70's food . I cooked onions, celery, carrots, and the softened 'shrooms, then I added the meat (ground beef and ground turkey), then a cup of dry red wine, then a cup of tomato puree, then the mushroom liquid. Cooked and cooked and it was NOT what I wanted! Bah!
Sweet S.O. said it was "good" but I am not satisfied.
Any help?? Thank you, as always.

messycook wrote:I am very frustrated with this dish. I usually don't struggle this much with cooking, but I can't seem to make good Ragu sauce. (Or is it Bolognese? I am confused. Antonius - your knowledge comes to mind - explanations?)

This is the history: Sig.Other really likes the stuff. So I tried a recipe from Dean and Deluca, because it seemed the most intensely flavored, labor-intensive. It turned out like, um, reddish/kind of creamy/lumpy and Very Very Heavy. (Disclaimer: recipe called for veal and I didn't use it. I really hate to eat veal. Is this the problem? I hope not.)
Second try was Cook's Illustrated, because I thought all the explanations would help me. No. Again, it was lumpy, not really stickin' to the pasta, just basically chunks of ground meat in some tomatoe-y sauce.
Last night was Food and Wine's recipe, which called for porcini mushrooms, and I had high hopes. But in the end, it looked like regrettable 70's food . I cooked onions, celery, carrots, and the softened 'shrooms, then I added the meat (ground beef and ground turkey), then a cup of dry red wine, then a cup of tomato puree, then the mushroom liquid. Cooked and cooked and it was NOT what I wanted! Bah!
Sweet S.O. said it was "good" but I am not satisfied.
Any help?? Thank you, as always.

I don't have any recepies for you, but it's been my experience that good ragu/Bolognese doesn't usually use ground meat. It is usually more like a "pulled" product...that is to say a meat that seems very well braised until it's falling apart. Kind of like the difference between using ground beef VS. diced beef when making chili. I'm speaking strictly as a Bolognese eater, having never cooked it myself. I'm sure those who have recepies will have more sccurate info.

You might be going in with a wrong impression of what a Bolognese ragu' is supposed to look like. Really, when it's done correctly, it's not so much like the Americanized meat sauce we are used to. It is quite heavy, oily and not too summery. Still, it's probably my single favorite dish.

Marcella Hazan's recipe is good. If you don't have her Essentials of Italian cooking, you should get it. Follow the recipe, and I think you'll be happy.

By the way, the recipes you describe are so way-off that I don't know how they can claim to be for the same dish. To me, ground turkey is a recipe for disaster in any pasta sauce, too lean, too watery

Use a heavy pot, like a le Cruset if you've got it. While the ragu cooks all day, you'll have time to roll out fresh pasta for tagliatelle, clean up the kitchen and set the table. Even better, put it in the fridge and eat it the next day.

Here's a recipe that I just found that is very much the way I make it, and very traditional:

http://www.halfass.com/log/archives/001852.php

Good luck. PS, if you want a decent example of ragu with porcini, try Bruna's.

I think that the ground meat is the problem too. The better meat Ragus that I have had have a tender shredded meat that has cooked slowly in the sauce.

Here's a recipe that I just found that is very much the way I make it, and very traditional:

That's a very similar recipe to one that I've made from Cold Weather Cooking by Sarah Leah Chase with much happiness. I agree Jeff, the thought of ground turkey in a Bolognese is not quite palatable.

stevez wrote:I don't have any recepies for you, but it's been my experience that good ragu/Bolognese doesn't usually use ground meat. It is usually more like a "pulled" product...that is to say a meat that seems very well braised until it's falling apart. Kind of like the difference between using ground beef VS. diced beef when making chili.

Notes on Ragù alla Bolognese

All recipes that I know for ragù alla Bolognese use (at least coarsely) ground meat and, while there certainly are Italian ragù which do not use ground meat -- in fact, I would say most do not -- they are not alla Bolognese. This point brings to attention a not inconsequential terminological problem. Ragù alla Bolognese is a specific kind of ragù, but it seems to me that when "Northern Italian" cuisine was discovered in this country (and also in Northern Europe), many restaurants decided that they needed to serve ragù alla Bolognese. Unfortunately, in most cases, they made little or no effort to produce the dish in question, and instead simply applied this prestigious label to whatever sort of ragù it was that they made.

As with virtually all famous Italian dishes which have a clear local origin but have subsequently been accepted into the national cuisine (insofar as it exists), there is a certain amount of variation in the recipe that one encounters-- and that's true even amongst the Bolognesi themselves. But that said, there are also well-known notions of what the limits of such variation are. To draw an analogy to another dish discussed recently in these terms on CH, alla Matriciana may have onion, may not, may use white wine, may not, but in Italy it never has garlic.

Such variation can be seen in the recipes by three chefs of considerable stature: the ever-cited M. Hazan, Giuliano Bugialli, and Lynne Rossetto Kasper (author of a fine book on the cuisine of Emilia-Romagna). These differ in 1) the use of butter; 2) the composition of the battuto; 3) use of nutmeg; 4) nature and quantity of tomato products used; 5) the meats used. And beyond the variation seen there, there are further possibilities (e.g., including chicken livers in the meat mix). What they all pretty much agree upon is:
1) use of a battuto of aromatic vegetables, usually with a pork product (usu. unsalted fatback, pancetta, prosciutto); NO GARLIC. (Hazan omits the pork).
2) use of ground beef, sometimes also pork (Bugialli adds pork).
3) use of dry WHITE WINE, not red! (All agree.)
4) use of milk, added gradually to the gently simmering battuto/ground meat mixture.
5) use of some tomato: a) Hazan uses only peeled tomatos and insists that they not be added till after the milk has all been added and cooked into the dish; Bugialli also uses peeled tomatoes but does not use any milk (he's a Tuscan, so one could say 'what does he know!', but he's an extremely knowledgeable cook) ; Kasper uses only tomato concentrate dissolved in beef stock.

A further point of variation is the cooking time. Hazan calls for 4 hours of simmering after all is assembled, while Bugialli and Kasper think a shorter time sufficient (GB: 45 min., then add cream and 20 min. more; LRK simmers for 2 hours).

I would suggest maybe trying some of the following things to address the problems you indicated:
1) Don't fry the ground meat too vigorously, so that it seizes up and gets hard; work it over well with a wooden spoon to break it up as much as possible.
2) Experiment with the tomato product and amounts thereof that you use; perhaps you prefer the more austere version with concentrate only.
3) During the simmering stage, SKIM, SKIM and SKIM some more. Reduce the amount of fat in the dish; it will not only be healthier and more digestable, it will taste better too, and if you're adding cream (omitted by Kasper), it allows you to enjoy that indulgence without turning the dish into a lead-weight.
4) Go for very gentle simmering but I would lean toward the un-Hazanish shorter time, especially if you follow her (and Bugialli) in using the peeled tomatoes. Tomatoes cooked for hours and hours are, pace the caricature image of the old Italian grandma over her ever-simmering pot, not such a highly prized thing in Italian cooking as one might think and regarded as bad by many. Two hours should be plenty for the magical transformation from a bunch of ingredients to a single magical substance to work.

By the way, as JeffB says, this is an inherently rather heavy dish and that is why I think skimming off the excess fat is especially important. There will always remain enough for the flavour to stay undiminished.

It's a truly great dish for a special occasion but for me, I like equally or even prefer some of the other, nowadays often sneered-at, southern Italian ragù preparations.

Of course, all that is assuming that it's ragù alla Bolognese that you want to make and not some other ragù. In any event, I hope this is of some help.

Antonius

Post-site-move character problems fixed.

Thanks for all the help. It has been really informative!
I have more questions though :

-should I braise something, then cool it and shred it and use it for Ragu?
(this is definitely Fall cooking, but anyways...)
-To be clear: Ragu is meat sauce, and Ragu Bolognese is *ground* meat sauce?
-Why did my most recent recipe call for red wine? (Food & Wine)
-I would add the wine *before* the milk, correct?
-If I used shredded meat, would I still use milk?
-Should I use whole milk?

>>"I like equally or even prefer some of the other, nowadays often sneered-at, southern Italian rag

Messycook:

Here are some responses to the specific questions you brought up:

messycook wrote:-should I braise something, then cool it and shred it and use it for Ragu?
(this is definitely Fall cooking, but anyways...)

Not if your intention is to make ragù alla Bolognese; see below.

-To be clear: Ragu is meat sauce, and Ragu Bolognese is *ground* meat sauce?

Again, ragù is a general term in Italian (though actually borrowed from the French ragoût where it indicates a stew) which involves basically slow-cooked meat with aromatic vegetables and various other ingredients, used as a dressing for pasta or polenta. Now, it is true, the Bolognesi and other northerners use the term ragù 'tout court' to refer to the particular version from Bologna which is now so widely known. This usage is, in my opinion, an excellent example of the deep-rooted provincialism and backwardness of many northern Italians ( -- just kidding!!!), for there are ragù made throughout Italy which to various degrees differ from La Grassa's version (Bologna la Grassa, fat Bologna). If one is in Emilia-Romagna, it makes sense perhaps to use ragù as shorthand for ragù alla Bolognese, but outside of that context there is the possibility of confusion with other, sometimes very different ragù recipes.

To sum up: there are many ragù (the plural is the same form as the singular); ragù alla Bolognese is for some the definitive one but that is a question of perspective and prejudice. Ragù alla Bolognese is made with ground beef, sometimes ground pork and chicken livers as well, with a battuto (usu. with a pork product but always without garlic) often nutmeg, white wine, usually milk, some form of tomato (noteworthy variation in this regard, as noted in the earlier post) and finished with cream. Note too that traditionally there are no herbs in this dish.

The Bolognese ragù is made with ground meat but there are certainly other Italian recipes which are ragù and use ground meat but are not alla Bolognese.

-Why did my most recent recipe call for red wine? (Food & Wine)

Who wrote the recipe? Red wine shouldn't ruin the recipe but it does change it. All the recipes I've seen by Italians call for white wine; that's the tradition. Use a dry white from northern Italy (e.g., Trebbiano).

-I would add the wine *before* the milk, correct?

Yes, the wine goes in when you're done sautéing the battuto and ground meat. Add, let it reduce, get the heat down and then, depending on whose recipe you're following, either the tomatoes go in or, as Hazan strongly prefers, the milk is added at the low simmer. I think this might be, as she suggests, a way of achieving the proper texture of the dish, with the meat cooking very gently in the milk. Again, sautéing at too high a heat or simmering at too high a heat will toughen the ground meat, I believe, giving the unpleasant texture you mentioned in your original post.

-If I used shredded meat, would I still use milk?

If you want alla Bolognese, use ground meat. Cooking a big chunk of meat slowly and then shredding it is an excellent method but it results in a different effect, both flavour wise and texture wise (unless you subject the shredded meat to intense chopping, it will be stringy).

-Should I use whole milk?

I would use whole milk, going on the reasoning that the recipe was surely developed with whole milk. Skimming of the rendered animal fat and adjustments of the amount of cream you might add can reduce the calories-from-fat level.

Antonius wrote:I like equally or even prefer some of the other, nowadays often sneered-at, southern Italian ragù preparations.

There are various different recipes I use. Briefly, there are: (1) the meatball/braciole/sausage kind of ragù; (2) whole pieces of (cheap and otherwise tough) meat cooked slowly; (3) ground meat or decased sausage (often with mushrooms), etc. etc. One of my favourites and a regular part of our home menu is a ragù using both cubed and minced (not ground!) pork. I�ll write some more on the southern ragù but not just now.

Final thought: try Hazan's and Kasper's and Bugialli's recipes over a stretch of time and see which one you like best. They're quite different, within certain limits, but all authentic, I believe, and good.

Buon appetito!
Antonius

Post-site-move character problems fixed.