Why can't downtown support a traditional deli?

When Brendan Sodikoff dropped the word "delicatessen" from the name of his Dillman's restaurant in River North last year after customer complaints, he turned up the heat on questions that have been simmering for years: What exactly is a delicatessen? Why do they have a hard time in downtown Chicago? What do they have to do to survive?

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... ional-deli

Chicago once supported two downtown Jewish city clubs...The Standard Club and The Covenant Club. The Covenant club has been gone for at least 20 years and Standard has been declining since the '08 meltdown. Different priorities for the younger generation of downtown workers.

Evil Ronnie wrote:Chicago once supported two downtown Jewish city clubs...The Standard Club and The Covenant Club. The Covenant club has been gone for at least 20 years and Standard has been declining since the '08 meltdown. Different priorities for the younger generation of downtown workers.

I think that's an oversimplification. It's more a function of how lines have become blurred. It used to be that you needed a deli to get certain foods but when Arby's is selling Reubens and Dunkin Donuts is selling what's the appeal of a deli for mainstream diners?

Even though they aren't all properly downtown (and sorry, Crain's, River North isn't "downtown" either), there's still Manny's, Eleven City, Perry's (and the Berghoff does booming business in corned beef and roast beef sandwiches). And deli favorites tend to pop up everywhere.

spinynorman...an Arby's Reuben isn't a Reuben but most people think it is and that is the problem. Nobody knows from Reubens anymore so people are happy with the dreck from Jason's Deli and the like.

Evil Ronnie wrote:spinynorman...an Arby's Reuben isn't a Reuben but most people think it is and that is the problem. Nobody knows from Reubens anymore so people are happy with the dreck from Jason's Deli and the like.

Evil, how is the Arby's version not a Reuben? I'm not saying it's a good Reuben (though it isn't hard to find people who say it is: http://dudefoods.com/arbys-reuben-sandwich/), but it's got the corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss, Thousand Island, marble rye.

Evil Ronnie wrote:spinynorman...an Arby's Reuben isn't a Reuben but most people think it is and that is the problem. Nobody knows from Reubens anymore so people are happy with the dreck from Jason's Deli and the like.

Hard to compete for the $5 footlong market and kids (21-39 year olds) are either looking for healthier options or something a little more exotic.

Just my 2¢, but I blame the changing workforce.
Even when I entered the workforce which was only 25 years ago people actually worked more or less 9-5 and took hour lunches. People placed importance on building relationships at work and a big part of that was having lunch with clients and coworkers. If you had a problem you could have lunch with your boss and talk it through.

Now you have to be in by 8, stay till 6, and work through eating lunch at your desk or you’re seen as not committed or even a slacker.
Going to a deli is more time consuming than getting something from today’s fast-grab lunch options. You can pick up something from a fast food place and be back at your desk in 15-30 minutes and in a lot of today’s job’s that’s what’s expected, and I’m talking everything from bank tellers to folks with 6 figure jobs. It just seems to me the world changed and traditional deli doesn’t fit like it used to, now it’s a weekend/evening treat and the loop just doesn’t have much weekend/evening traffic.

zoid wrote:Just my 2¢, but I blame the changing workforce.
Even when I entered the workforce which was only 25 years ago people actually worked more or less 9-5 and took hour lunches. People placed importance on building relationships at work and a big part of that was having lunch with clients and coworkers. If you had a problem you could have lunch with your boss and talk it through.

Now you have to be in by 8, stay till 6, and work through eating lunch at your desk or you’re seen as not committed or even a slacker.
Going to a deli is more time consuming than getting something from today’s fast-grab lunch options. You can pick up something from a fast food place and be back at your desk in 15-30 minutes and in a lot of today’s job’s that’s what’s expected, and I’m talking everything from bank tellers to folks with 6 figure jobs. It just seems to me the world changed and traditional deli doesn’t fit like it used to, now it’s a weekend/evening treat and the loop just doesn’t have much weekend/evening traffic.

There are plenty of good sit-down restaurants in the downtown area, if you look a little more broadly (North, South and West) there are many. And they're all crowded with business diners, so that's not it.

Mr. Hammond,

In my opinion, the Reuben has mostly been dumbed down and that's what I mean when I say nobody knows from Reuben's anymore. Thankfully, I've not had an Arby's Reuben, but I am familiar with the quality of some of their products, which to me are at the bottom of the fast food chain.

No offense to anyone, but Goyische bread like artificially colored white bread posing as marble rye, rather than for example a Kauffmann's style rye or pumpernicKle for starters. Kleenex style rye bread. Next would be the meat. Pre cooked Oscar Meyer/ Hormel/ Sysco type corned beef product rather than freshly simmered and sliced Jewish style old world corned beef like Vienna or Sy Ginsberg, right off the meat slicer and still warm. Bottled 1000 island dressing full of high
fructose corn syrup rather than house made. The wrong kind of pickle if you're lucky enough to get one at all. Heating of the product in a microwave rather than a griddle. Cheap flavorless Swiss cheese product.

Like I said, not many people seem to know from Reubens any more.

No argument with any of that, of course.

Evil Ronnie wrote:Like I said, not many people seem to know from Reubens any more.

For many diners, their first and only exposure to certain types of foods are through mainstreamed outlets like Arby's or Subway, so their expectations are set by these experiences. And a $4-$5 sandwich that they're used to generally trumps a $10-$12 sandwich made properly. People like those on this forum, who have food on their radar as a baseline, are not representative of the majority of diners out there.

I understand David's point, which is that nobody said that a Reuben has to be a good Reuben in order to be a Reuben. Just as not all art is good, yet is still art. (If we are to say that art has to be good to be art, then the phrase "bad art" loses all meaning.) If it looks and quacks like a duck, it's a duck--even if it's a duck who is terrible at being a duck.

I also think zoid's analysis of the changing workday and how it impacts sit-down restaurants in general is right on.

riddlemay wrote:I also think zoid's analysis of the changing workday and how it impacts sit-down restaurants in general is right on.

Totally inaccurate, as I mentioned in my response to zoid. Lots of business at sit-down spots all over the Loop and beyond. And at most spots, if you don't have a reservation, you're SOL. I've had many business lunches and client lunches all over the Loop.

Deli food is heavy, fatty and not particularly healthful. Combine that with the fact that much of what most delis serve these days is mass-produced crap, and it's not difficult to understand why this is a dying category. If you're going to indulge, you want it to be worth the splurge. And that isn't strictly about gargantuan portions.

A place like Kenny and Zuke's in Portland, OR does it right. They make virtually everything in-house, from scratch. If a place like that were to open downtown, I'm guessing they'd crush it.

=R=

When I began work there were two delis nearby. Ashkenaz had a place on Dearborn near Adams I think and there was place called the Dill Pickle that was either on Jackson or Van Buren. You could get a good corned beef sandwich or reuben. Seems like the younger generation has abandoned this type of food. I asked my Jewish co workers "lets find a place to go out and have a nice corned beef sandwich". They rejected it saying they don't eat that type of food anymore its unhealthy. Then they went to the microwave and put their sweet potato in. That's what they were having for lunch. I find that mostly I get my reubens now at greek coffee shop diner kind of places. I would kill for a great corned beef sandwich. I don't like marble rye.

toria wrote:When I began work there were two delis nearby. Ashkenaz had a place on Dearborn near Adams I think and there was place called the Dill Pickle that was either on Jackson or Van Buren. You could get a good corned beef sandwich or reuben. Seems like the younger generation has abandoned this type of food. I asked my Jewish co workers "lets find a place to go out and have a nice corned beef sandwich". They rejected it saying they don't eat that type of food anymore its unhealthy. Then they went to the microwave and put their sweet potato in. That's what they were having for lunch. I find that mostly I get my reubens now at greek coffee shop diner kind of places. I would kill for a great corned beef sandwich. I don't like marble rye.

We do order in to the office from Manny's (which I find pretty weak these days) or Eleven City (which is better but not by much) and the coworkers enjoy it. But not enough to go out of their way for it otherwise. At home I still make occasional runs to Romanian or Hungarian Kosher, but nowhere near as frequent as in my younger days.

I quit going to delis when I realized that I no longer enjoyed a 24 oz, $14 sandwich for lunch. I would rather eat much lighter.

jlawrence01 wrote:I quit going to delis when I realized that I no longer enjoyed a 24 oz, $14 sandwich for lunch. I would rather eat much lighter.

It's actually 2-12 oz. sandwiches for $14.

David Sax covered this in much greater detail in Save The Deli, but it's basically cost-prohibitive due to the increase in meat costs for what used to be "cheap cuts" like brisket, and the amount of time and effort that are required to make deli the right way. They are very hard to duplicate for a chain, just look at the disaster that Jerry's Deli became.

I agree - if there could be a deli with totally homemade products (e.g., housemade corned beef, pastrami, tongue), then that would be fantastic. Otherwise, everything just seems like reheated Vienna Beef-- not that that's so bad, but it's certainly not that special.

spinynorman99 wrote:

riddlemay wrote:I also think zoid's analysis of the changing workday and how it impacts sit-down restaurants in general is right on.

Totally inaccurate, as I mentioned in my response to zoid. Lots of business at sit-down spots all over the Loop and beyond. And at most spots, if you don't have a reservation, you're SOL. I've had many business lunches and client lunches all over the Loop.

Spiny, I'm aware you said that in your response to zoid, but it doesn't match up with my own observation of sit-down places in the Loop disappearing left and right.

It's almost like you're saying, "Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"

riddlemay wrote:Spiny, I'm aware you said that in your response to zoid, but it doesn't match up with my own observation of sit-down places in the Loop disappearing left and right.

It's almost like you're saying, "Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"

Well, I've been working in the Loop for over 20 years. Restaurants have gone and new ones have come in, but there hasn't been any obvious decline in business lunches. Certainly not in my circle.

I wonder if the way to reconcile our positions is to speculate that "upmarket" sit-down restaurants (the kind businesspeople go to for business lunches) have continued to open and/or thrive while the restaurants that ordinary working stiffs used to sit down and lunch at have closed, replaced by takeout and counter-service sandwich shops.

It seems "deli" is being used in various senses here.

Is Pastoral a delicatessen? Russian Tea Time? Artists Cafe? Hannah's Bretzel? the French Market?

toria wrote:... there was place called the Dill Pickle that was either on Jackson or Van Buren.

I used to love that place! One of my college friends took us there when we all took a day trip to explore Chicago, and he sold it to the rest of us as the site of The Blues Brothers' apartment. I think the whole building explodes late in the movie. After that trip I made it a point to eat there whenever I was in the neighborhood.

The Harold Washington Library is across the street from where this used to be, right?

Now I must say that I like me a Jake's reuben, I really do. But I understand that they use Vienna Beef to start with. Does that decrease their virtue? Interesting question...

Geo

phaseolus wrote:

toria wrote:... there was place called the Dill Pickle that was either on Jackson or Van Buren.

I used to love that place! One of my college friends took us there when we all took a day trip to explore Chicago, and he sold it to the rest of us as the site of The Blues Brothers' apartment. I think the whole building explodes late in the movie. After that trip I made it a point to eat there whenever I was in the neighborhood.

The Harold Washington Library is across the street from where this used to be, right?

It was at Van Buren, just west of State Street (where the crappy Pritzker Park is now).

spinynorman99 wrote:

phaseolus wrote:

toria wrote:... there was place called the Dill Pickle that was either on Jackson or Van Buren.

I used to love that place! One of my college friends took us there when we all took a day trip to explore Chicago, and he sold it to the rest of us as the site of The Blues Brothers' apartment. I think the whole building explodes late in the movie. After that trip I made it a point to eat there whenever I was in the neighborhood.

The Harold Washington Library is across the street from where this used to be, right?

It was at Van Buren, just west of State Street (where the crappy Pritzker Park is now).

There's a decent deli-ish place in the French Market. They do a good chopped liver sandwich.

Evil Ronnie wrote:Chicago once supported two downtown Jewish city clubs...The Standard Club and The Covenant Club. The Covenant club has been gone for at least 20 years and Standard has been declining since the '08 meltdown. Different priorities for the younger generation of downtown workers.

Chicago’s elite Standard Club to close May 1

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/3/4/2 ... lose-may-1