What's more, Kenny, I don't know if you read the East Bay Express piece or just the Trib piece, but these aren't based solely on the errant speculation of a few disgruntled restaurateurs:

But Donaker's denials are challenged by nine local business owners and also by a former contract employee who worked with Yelp in its early days. That person, who is still close to some Yelp employees and only agreed to be interviewed if granted anonymity, said several sales reps have told him they promised to move reviews to get businesses to advertise. "It's not illegal or unethical," he said they told him. "We're just helping the little guy. It doesn't hurt them, it benefits them."

Dmnkly wrote:What's more, Kenny, I don't know if you read the East Bay Express piece...

Oh yeah, I read it. It was especially illuminating to note the discrepancy between annie's take on when the sales rep calls and "John's" take. Annie's evidence of unethical practices includes the fact that the rep always calls right after new positive reviews come in. "John's" evidence is that the calls always come when the negative reviews start coming in. Personally, I think it has to do with the position of the moon relative to the stars.

And I know you're a critical enough reader to see what nonsense that heresay quote in the second part of your post is. "he said they told him..." Come on, that's not journalism. Yelp, by the way, does not allow hearsay in the reviews on its site. Those reviews are trashed, which should be the fate of this article. And you can't attribute a quote like that to several people. What, did they speak in unison? I don't know much about the East Bay Express, but that article priovides some hints that the paper deserves barely a shred of credibility.

Kennyz wrote:

jesteinf wrote:

anniee8m wrote:and was told that I could pick 1 review to be deleted from the site if we chose to advertise.

If the site doesn't disclose this practice to users, then I think that's a problem (unless you just consider Yelp to be a big ad site, in which case anything goes I guess).

The site explicitly says that this is NEVER done. If the offer was really made to anniee8m, it was done by a person violating company policy, and I suspect that person would be fired if management found out. I don't doubt the possibility that it happened, as it is widely known that sales people in any industry who are compensated on results are prone to misleading potential customers in order to get the sale. Plus, this is Illinois.

Kenny,

Yelp is in the best position to know about and stop any misleading or unfair practices by their employe-agents doing their job at the company Yelp runs for profit. Consumers and competitors, no so much. This socio-economic truism has been recognized by our elected officials in the form of laws that some might think unfair, but most do not. Caveat emptor and pure heart empty head are mythical defenses today, and properly so, at least with regard to Joe Consumer. So, the "bad egg" hypothesis probably is at best irrelevant and at worst a dangerously false security blanket for businesspeople. Plus, because we are here talking about it, Yelp can't even use the "didn't know" defense, such as it is.

I do agree that there seems to be a fair bit of overreaching speculation here. If the dustup is based on false or exaggerated claims, that will be too bad for Yelp and they will have limited options, what with the First Amendment and all. I have no knowledge or opinion about Yelp's practices. I find the reviews to be mostly unhelpful, though from time to time I do agree with some of the lists put together by users who concentrate on particular types of food. Asian stuff especially.

JeffB wrote:Kenny,

Yelp is in the best position to know about and stop any misleading or unfair practices by their employe-agents doing their job at the company Yelp runs for profit. Consumers and competitors, no so much. This socio-economic truism has been recognized by our elected officials in the form of laws that some might think unfair, but most do not. Caveat emptor and pure heart empty head are mythical defenses today...

Jeff,

I spent several years in the pharmaceutical industry. Believe me, I know of what you speak. Given that experience, I don't doubt that many sales reps for Yelp have hinted at many of the things they're accused of saying. What I do doubt is the as-I-can-tell baseless insinuations that the offers to remove negative reviews were fulfilled based on advertising purchases, and some other similarly baseless conjecture in this thread.

While I agree that corporate's ignorance of sales reps actions is not an excuse, I disagree that Yelp is in the best position to know about it. The people in the best position to know about sales reps' unethical practices are the customers they call on. I'd be very interested in hearing what happened when Ina or one of the many anonymous restaurateurs in San Fran made a formal complaint to Yelp about something a rep told them. Of course, if they continue the credibility-limiting position of requiring anonymity, we will never know, and chances are they haven't tried to do anything productive to stop the problem they're complaining about.

Kenny

The Tribune article could have also mentioned that Metromix has had its fair share of controversy also, for many of the same reasons.

...but they wouldn't do that, as Metromix is part of Tribune Media Inc., right? Did Ms. Eng perchance include in her piece that Yelp is a direct competitor of her employer's nearly identical entertainment search site?

Kennyz wrote:Of course, if they continue the credibility-limiting position of requiring anonymity, we will never know, and chances are they haven't tried to do anything productive to stop the problem they're complaining about.

Careful, Kenny. Wouldn't want to engage in any baseless conjecture, there

Dmnkly wrote:

Kennyz wrote:Of course, if they continue the credibility-limiting position of requiring anonymity, we will never know, and chances are they haven't tried to do anything productive to stop the problem they're complaining about.

Careful, Kenny. Wouldn't want to engage in any baseless conjecture, there

In this economy, I like to keep all options open. Even jobs at the Tribune.

As some of you know, I once posted regularly and frequently on Yelp before deciding to remove most of my reviews due to them taking down my critical reviews of their sponsoring businesses.

The "restaurant marketer", Cindy Kurman, who is quoted in Monica's article regularly uses Yelp to shill for her paying clients. The issue was pointed out to Yelp management and was ignored...probably because Cindy Kurman is a paying customer, too.

The greatest thing that LTH has going is its commitment to not allowing shilling on the part of restaurant owners or professional marketers. It keeps the site honest and makes it reliable for anyone who reads it.

YourPalWill wrote:As some of you know, I once posted regularly and frequently on Yelp before deciding to remove most of my reviews due to them taking down my critical reviews of their sponsoring businesses.

The "restaurant marketer", Cindy Kurman, who is quoted in Monica's article regularly uses Yelp to shill for her paying clients. The issue was pointed out to Yelp management and was ignored...probably because Cindy Kurman is a paying customer, too.

The greatest thing that LTH has going is its commitment to not allowing shilling on the part of restaurant owners or professional marketers. It keeps the site honest and makes it reliable for anyone who reads it.

1,988.47 people to go.

I don't doubt that YourPalWill had negative posts about sponsored business removed. And I don't doubt that many businesses that have seen positive and negative reviews disappear for reasons no one can seem to explain well. Nor do I doubt the claim that Yelp is full of PR Firms and restaurant owners that shill with disgusting frequency. These are all factors that limit the usefulness of Yelp. Unfortunately, they are also inevitable happenings when a site as gigantic as Yelp attempts to continue allowing open reviews by the community. Sure, LTHForum is able to police the shilling better than Yelp, but we still have our share that get through, and LTHForum is about 1/10000 the size of Yelp. I don't know Will's story, but here's my guess as to what happened: He posted some fair but critical reviews of sponsoring businesses, and then those sponsoring businesses or their PR Firm had all their friends flag his reviews. What are the Yelp Customer Service people to do? They have dozens of people flagging this one review and claiming that Will is a competitor or whatever. Sure, it would be nice if they fully investigated every such instance, but can you imagine the volume? So they err on the side of deleting a review that is the subject of many complaints. If they err on the other side instead, they'll more often be accused of ignoring a problem, and fostering competitor abuse.

Yelp is not the evil force. It's unethical PR Firms and business owners like Patty Rothman who call themselves "offended but resigned" to these unethical practices. I truly believe that Yelp is trying to be a site "by the people, for the people." But we certainly have plenty of history in this country showing just how hard that is. Implementation is imperfect, but the U.S. political system and Yelp both do a pretty good job.

Kennyz wrote:I truly believe that Yelp is trying to be a site "by the people, for the people."

Perhaps part of Yelp's mission statement/overarching goal is to be "by the people, for the people," but Yelp is a for-profit company and thus, its true mission/goal (or at least its overall responsibility to its investors) is or should be making money. Obviously, a lot of companies combine doing well with doing good, but there is a potential tension or conflict between building a strong, transparent, self-governing user community and soliciting money from the sources of the users' reviews. One nice thing about LTH is that there is no profit motive to come into conflict with the broader community-oriented goals.

Funnily enough, I opened up my email this morning and saw that I had something called "Yelp Secrets, Exposed!" Great, I thought! Some transparency, maybe an update of their business practices? Let's see here...

Yelp's all about unearthing those hidden treasures that make you think "Ah, yes... I've found something special here!" So open your mind and trot a bit off the beaten path to discover an entire city of hidden gems. Chains and tourist traps be damned, this Weekly Yelp's got a secret stash of Chicago flavor!

.............

Grace L demands we "forget the Bean, because Shit Fountain is the quintessential Chicago spectacle to show off when out-of-town friends come visit and you're stuck playing tour guide." Nothin' crappy 'bout that!

I never would have known about Shit Fountain if not for Yelp. Thanks, Yelp!

I never would have known about it if not for a three-page Yelp thread at LTHForum, alas....

Sounds like extortion to me. If you don't pay Yelp, you're at a disadvantage to your competitors.

teatpuller wrote:Sounds like extortion to me. If you don't pay Yelp, you're at a disadvantage to your competitors.

The same is true of Google, though, along with probably a million other sites. The only issue is disclosure.

riddlemay wrote:

teatpuller wrote:Sounds like extortion to me. If you don't pay Yelp, you're at a disadvantage to your competitors.

The same is true of Google, though, along with probably a million other sites. The only issue is disclosure.

Preciso.

well, yeah! google's sponsors are in a big pink box labeled as "sponsors."

teatpuller wrote:well, yeah! google's sponsors are in a big pink box labeled as "sponsors."

It seems to me that all Yelp would need to do to make everyone happy (or at least all reasonable people happy) is have a little box on the side that reads, "This business is a Yelp sponsor. Click here to see what that means." When you click, you get a box that spells out the privileges that accrue to Yelp sponsors.

Problem solved!

teatpuller and riddlemay,

Have either of you actually looked at Yelp? Sponsors are very clearly labeled Sponsors, and a full explanation is provided to people who want to know what that means. There is complete transparency in this regard.

Kenny

Kennyz wrote:teatpuller and riddlemay,

Have either of you actually looked at Yelp? Sponsors are very clearly labeled Sponsors, and a full explanation is provided to people who want to know what that means. There is complete transparency in this regard.

Kenny

To answer the specific question, I'm not at all a frequent user of Yelp, but went to it just prior to writing in order to refresh my memory of it, and the particular pages I went to had no sponsorship labeling. I'm happy to hear that Yelp is transparent regarding the businesses that are sponsors. (Just wanted to clarify that I'm not in the never "actually looked at Yelp" category.)

Here's what a page looks like for a sponsor-restaurant

How about we rename LTH to yelpalicious and start taking doughski from any and all. Can we wind this discussion down then?

Just asking..............

Kennyz wrote:Here's what a page looks like for a sponsor-restaurant

I only have seen it when I land on it via a google search. I see your example there, but it still isn't clear to me that they edit the reviews because of that. Movies advertise in newspapers but I don't assume that Roger Ebert changes his reviews because of it. Probably naivite on my part.

Kennyz wrote:Here's what a page looks like for a sponsor-restaurant

OK, I have no doubt that the sponsorship disclosure is on there somewhere, or you wouldn't have posted it, but I can't find it! If I spent enough time looking, I bet I'd see it eventually, but maybe Yelp needs to make it more obvious for dopes like me.

I found it once I scrolled down to the first full review. But I agree - it's not immediately obvious that they're a sponsor.

It seems that San Francisco's Delfina has found a way to make light of negative Yelp reviews:

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/04/pi ... es-st.html

I liked this, down in the comments. Someone said Yelpers are as bad as commenters on YouTube:

I resent that. I've made dozens of positive, enthusiastic and cogent posts on Yelp. For my sister-in-law's restaurant, under dozens of different names, but my point is they were all much higher quality than the sort of thing you'd find on YouTube.

I post occasionally on Yelp, and read it too. A friend of mine is a regular posted and turned me on to it. He doesn't post here, and is still a decent guy

While I do use it a lot for the non-restaurant stuff, I def. post reviews of restaurants I've been. I like the proximity option with the iPhone app for Yelp, and the quick access to the business info (phone, location, hours, etc). I've also seen shilling (a now-closed restaurant had a bunch of very positive reviews by people who only had one review and no picture, all of whom were listed as "friends" of someone who identified as the owner).

I tend to re-sort the reviews by date when I am viewing it.

G Wiv wrote:How about we rename LTH to yelpalicious and start taking doughski from any and all. Can we wind this discussion down then?

Just asking..............

Amen. Enough already. This horse has been beaten to death.

LA Times takes Yelp to task, too: Cry for Yelp

Since then, hundreds of firms nationwide have claimed the company tried to extort money for ads. Their complaints have drawn coverage across the English-speaking world, from The Wall Street Journal to the U.K.'s Guardian.

Yelp has vehemently denied those claims, noting ad reps have no power over placement of reviews. Yet on April 5, the company publicly acknowledged the issue. It added links to deleted comments and took away paying members' ability to place positive evaluations atop their profiles. "[There's] no connection between advertising and content," says Jeremy Stoppelman, one of the company's two überhip founders.

But those moves failed to placate Yelp haters — including scores who claim to have been victimized like Mehana. They say the changes are just window-dressing. What's more, the list of plaintiffs suing Yelp is growing, says Jared Beck, one of the four lawyers who filed the suit, initiated by Cats & Dogs in Long Beach. So far, 10 businesses have signed on. And more than 500 business owners have contacted the attorneys to report chicanery by Yelp.