Yelp -- The fix is in

Interesting article on Yelp shenanigans.


Chicago proprietors add to Yelp allegations
Businesses say site rearranges opinions for price; CEO denies
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0309-yelpmar09,0,6683711.story

By Monica Eng | Tribune reporter
March 9, 2009

With the Web site Yelp still responding to allegations by San Francisco businesses that it manipulates the prominence of positive and negative reviews, some Chicago merchants are adding to the heat.

They allege that Yelp representatives have offered to rearrange positive and negative reviews for companies that advertise on the site or sponsor Yelp Elite parties.

Rest of story --> here

Wow! The allegations made in the piece are really (potentially) damning -- and they come from pretty credible sources, too. I've never participated at Yelp or even read it, for that matter but I'm guessing that if the claims are true, those who have contributed their efforts at Yelp are going to be pretty upset.

=R=

Here's the story from the Bay Area alternative paper mentioned in this story:

Yelp and the Business of Extortion 2.0

Wish I could say I'm surprised by this development.

I'm not surprised(I have heard rumors of such antics in the past).

I really have no use for Yelp, as it seemed more like a social networking site vs a serious food site.

I'm not surprised that allegations like this emerge against Yelp - haven't we seen a handful of articles like this already? - but I am disgusted by the diners who would show up at a place like Graham Elliot and declare "I'll be reviewing this for Yelp."

Has anyone ever pulled out the LTHForum card as a threat? I'm going to guess the answer is no - and if any mention of the site is made to restauranteurs, it's almost entirely in a positive, supportive manner.

Were I someone running a restaurant, and heard that a table used Yelp as a threat or a bargaining chip to try to influence their meal, their amuse bouche would be a swift kick out to the sidewalk.

Yelp is a utopia for people with terrible opinions and a strong need to share them with like-minded others.

I haven't really been impressed with the majority of the stuff I've read on Yelp. Most of the reviews I've read seem to dwell on how easy/cheap it is to get drunk in a given establishment.

I feel like I've heard about this review ordering practice before, and I sincerely hope that more chefs and business owners rise up and "fight the power".

I'm not surprised either. I always noticed that the posts were never in chronological order for some reason, and now I have the reason.

I've found exactly one use for Yelp: it is often the one place where an obscure neighborhood spot has picked up one review from somebody who lives three blocks away, and so it can alert you to the existence of places you otherwise might not have known about, or give you basic info when no one has covered a place. For instance, that's how I found Baladi (not to be confused with al-Bawadi), one of the Bridgeview restaurants, which is not readily visible from any major street. I can't say I particularly paid any attention to the review, but it told me it existed.

There's links to this and many other similar stories at several anti-yelp web sites.

I'm actually here because of what happened to me there. I regularly had reviews deleted, as did many others. The reason they'd give would always be as bogus as a $3 bill. They deleted my account twice, again for totally bogus reasons (claimed my account was created by "automated" means). They screw business owners and site members alike. They extort advertisers and manipulate reviews favorably for those who pay up, and unfavorably for those that don't.

The biggest problem is actually on their "talk" forum. All sorts of harassment, hate, and other internet aggression. The site would be better off if it stuck to its target function and dumped that third grade chat room with all its bullies. The "elite" user that harassed other members last year is still on the site, while the person harassed and several defenders, including myself, were immediately deleted for sticking up for the abused person.

And they are setting themselves up for some psychopath stalker doing something nasty to someone. It's just a matter if time. Unless a RICO or extortion charge shuts them down first.

Here's another story I saw recently on this, from the New York Times.

I have found Yelp to be somewhat helpful for phone, address and hours of operation information. That's about it. Kind of like Metromix or Centerstage in that regard.

Maybe it's the contrarian in me, but I'm going to defend Yelp. But only a little bit. I'm definitely not going to defend them against charges that they are manipulating the reviews. And I'm certainly not going to argue the quality of their reviewers. But, Yelp deserves defending because, as far as I can tell, it's the best way to search an area for a specific type of business. It's not always perfect and most every review must be taken with a grain of salt (especially given these recent charges), but if I want to find every shoe store in Ravenswood or every bar near the Old Town School of Music, Yelp is how I do. If there's a more reputable website that offers that that function, I'd love to hear about it.

ronnie_suburban wrote:Wow! The allegations made in the piece are really (potentially) damning -- and they come from pretty credible sources, too. I've never participated at Yelp or even read it, for that matter but I'm guessing that if the claims are true, those who have contributed their efforts at Yelp are going to be pretty upset.

=R=

I have written positive reviews on that site...where is my cut of the loot?

fj123 wrote:If there's a more reputable website that offers that that function, I'd love to hear about it.

After I gave up on yelp, I went back to what I used to do: a distance search on yellowpages.com. The other option is a "search nearby" on mapquest.com.

Centerstage's Virtual El does something similar, but it doesn't map it out for you.

fj123 wrote:...if I want to find every shoe store in Ravenswood or every bar near the Old Town School of Music, Yelp is how I do.

I do have to agree with this. Yelp is how I found a most excellent plumber, who does emergency visits on federal holidays at no additional charge, show up exactly, on-the-dot on time, and itemize every little charge on their final bill...I would've guessed his shop is located in some magical land of unicorns and rainbows, were it not for his 773 area code.

That said, I have a very strong dislike for a majority of the restaurant reviews I've encountered on Yelp. The word "like" seems to have been used as a comma, places are "dinged" for the most ridiculous reasons, and, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, focus quite a bit on how wasted they were able to get.

An (invented) example I used to describe it to a friend was something along the lines of: "[Insert Name Here] Thai Restaurant was like so terrible. I went there for dinner with my girls because everyone was like 'oh my god', but we all thought it sucked. The pad thai was like totally gross, and they wouldn't even let us drink our own wine that we brought! It's like so stupid, I thought like all Thai places are supposed to be BYOB, but they tried to make us buy their wine. Whatever. Then when we tried to push a bunch of tables together they totally yelled at us about fire codes or something. I only gave this place one star because it wouldn't let me give it zero stars."

I've seen a couple of solid, useful reviews there, but they unfortunately get drowned out by the ones resembling my example.

Whiskeybent and j r - Those options are useful, but for me, they don't beat Yelp. Putting aside the quality of Yelp's reviews, I think their quantity is often meaningful. Also, the power of integrating with Google Maps is, I think, beyond compare. See, e.g. Germuska's Google Map of GNR winners.

Another sore issue: if you own or work for a business they don't let you review anything else. Or so they say.

It would be an obvious conflict of interest to review yourself. But there are plenty of such reviews from advertisers. But an ordinary business owner who tries this gets deleted. And it would be a similar conflict to review competitors (again, advertisers get a free pass, others do not).

But what about the owner of a restaurant reviewing a pet store, or a muffler franchise. No conflict of interest, yet they delete some (again the ones that don't pay the extortion / advertising) and leave others alone.

Better yet, there are many who have been PAID to write reviews, which is never disclosed. And the site employees themselves write glowing reviews of the paid advertisers.

Everything about the site screams double standard. The sneetches with the stars on their belly get the freebies, and can do no wrong. Advertizers get preferential treatment, and those that don't pay up get screwed.

I used to compare it to "Calvinball", where you make up the rules as you go along. Eventually the business owners and users will do like Rozalyn, and stumble into the "Perimeter of Wisdom" and yelp will vanish.

fj123 wrote:Whiskeybent and j r - Those options are useful, but for me, they don't beat Yelp. Putting aside the quality of Yelp's reviews, I think their quantity is often meaningful. Also, the power of integrating with Google Maps is, I think, beyond compare. See, e.g. Germuska's Google Map of GNR winners.

The quantity of reviews is more an indication of the population density in that area. They are notoriously sparse out in the suburbs where I live. And of course, how "in" the place is with the star bellied sneetches...

another place fights back against yelp

fj123 wrote:...but if I want to find every shoe store in Ravenswood or every bar near the Old Town School of Music, Yelp is how I do. If there's a more reputable website that offers that that function, I'd love to hear about it.

GoogleMaps can do this too.

Khaopaat wrote:["[Insert Name Here] Thai Restaurant was like so terrible. I went there for dinner with my girls because everyone was like 'oh my god', but we all thought it sucked. The pad thai was like totally gross, and they wouldn't even let us drink our own wine that we brought! It's like so stupid, I thought like all Thai places are supposed to be BYOB, but they tried to make us buy their wine. Whatever. Then when we tried to push a bunch of tables together they totally yelled at us about fire codes or something. I only gave this place one star because it wouldn't let me give it zero stars."

You forgot to write it in all misspelled lowercase with errant apostrophe's.

Pie Lady wrote:You forgot to write it in all misspelled lowercase with errant apostrophe's.

LTH,

I should point out spelling, grammar, etc does not count on LTHForum. Participation, content and enthusiasm are key, not commas, even missing ones

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

Pie Lady wrote:You forgot to write it in all misspelled lowercase with errant apostrophe's.

LTH,

I should point out spelling, grammar, etc does not count on LTHForum. Participation, content and enthusiasm are key, not commas, even missing ones

Enjoy,
Gary

Uh...dude. I think that the Pie Lady was referring to the, like, anonymous reviewer being parodied by, ya know, Khaopaat.

Gypsy Boy wrote:Uh...dude. I think that the Pie Lady was referring to the, like, anonymous reviewer being parodied by, ya know, Khaopaat.

GB,

I realize that, but I there seems to be an emphasis lately on matters grammar and I took the opportunity to point out posts on LTHForum are taken at face value, regardless of spelling.

Where would you rather I put the post, did I spell everything right, grammar, syntax, command of the obvious?

Kidding 'cause I love

Enjoy,
Gary

Pete wrote:Yelp is a utopia for people with terrible opinions and a strong need to share them with like-minded others.

But not exclusively. I have several bright friends that post on Yelp and have built respected profiles that have helped them connect with other thoughtful diners and restauranteurs. Some of these same folks are scared of posting on LTH, fearing our "intensity," as one of them put it.

Like the Berwyn Talk Forum and other locally-focused sites, I find the local aspects of Yelp to be helpful, as cited by Mike G. All of this said, I am not remotely surprised that placement / arrangement shenanigans may be going on.

Tribune Article wrote:The owner of More Cupcakes, Patty Rothman, said that last fall a Yelp Chicago staffer walked into her Gold Coast shop and "guaranteed us good reviews on the site if we catered one of their parties for free." Offended but resigned, Rothman complied. And just as promised, positive reviews bloomed for the business right after the party, Rothman said.

Offended but resigned? You've got to be kidding me! However unethical the Yelp review-arranging process is (and I don't actually think it's all that unethical), if this Tribune quote is accurate, I find Patty Rothman's action far more repulsive.

Really, nothing I read in that article leads me to the conclusion that Yelp is doing anything unethical. They're running a business and trying to sell stuff. So what? If they hint, or even flat out say, that if a restaurant hosts a Yelp party positive reviews will flow, what's wrong with that? They're almost certainly right. If you give away free food people will tend to write positive things. I don't see any news flash in this article.

Kennyz wrote:Really, nothing I read in that article leads me to the conclusion that Yelp is doing anything unethical. They're running a business and trying to sell stuff. So what? If they hint, or even flat out say, that if a restaurant hosts a Yelp party positive reviews will flow, what's wrong with that? They're almost certainly right. If you give away free food people will tend to write positive things. I don't see any news flash in this article.

I respectfully disagree, this kind of practice boarders on extortion. Freebies for good reviews, with the unspoken threat/hint of bad reviews if they are rebuked by the establishment in question.

Either way I have no horse in this race since I dont know the establishment in question, or use Yelp.

Kennyz wrote:Really, nothing I read in that article leads me to the conclusion that Yelp is doing anything unethical. They're running a business and trying to sell stuff. So what? If they hint, or even flat out say, that if a restaurant hosts a Yelp party positive reviews will flow, what's wrong with that? They're almost certainly right. If you give away free food people will tend to write positive things. I don't see any news flash in this article.

Generally, you're absolutely right; you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours is how the business world works, regardless of industry.

In this case, however, there are only two reasons I might disagree, except one is based on what may be a misconception & the other could be a misunderstanding:

1) The consensus seems to be that Yelp's raison d'être is to be an unbiased repository of user reviews; however, unless they've changed it recently, their "About Us" page makes it sound like they define themselves as a repository of online advertisements that happens to have a ton of user reviews (http://www.yelp.com/about).

2) I interpreted from the Tribune article that the Yelp salesperson wanted Ms. Rothman to provide free cupcakes for a Yelp office party...but the more I think about it, the more I think you may be right. It's quite possible the sales guy was trying to convey the idea that people love free stuff & feel warmly towards anyone who gives them said free stuff, so if she were to provide cupcakes for a Yelper party at Marquis Lounge (or where ever it is that people who write stuff like the review I made up earlier), they might feel inclined to post glowing reviews about More.

I still don't think it's a coincidence that all of this fallout is happening, in different cities, at the same time...but I do think it's possible that, rather than sleazy business practices, it could be because some of their salespeople are independently sleazy. Maybe they just haven't been as diligent as they should have been in their hiring practices, and ended up with a bunch of used car salesmen.

Regardless, my distaste/disdain for a majority of Yelp's reviews continues unabated, and I still get a slimy vibe from the company as a whole that causes me to stay well away.

jimswside wrote:I respectfully disagree, this kind of practice boarders on extortion...the unspoken threat/hint of bad reviews if they are rebuked by the establishment in question.

If it were actually happening, I'd agree with you. But I see no evidence that Yelp directly or indirectly threatened anybody for refusing to advertise. A couple of restaurateurs who feel like the reviews went downhill after they said no proves absolutely nothing to me, and - personally - I find the Tribune's suggestive journalism more troubling than anything else here. The quotes they found might serve as leads toward what could become a story. But then - assuming you're not the National Enquirer - you're actually supposed to investigate the leads. Find out if there is really anything behind them, before you publish such potential damaging quotes, which might very well amount to nothing more than trash.

jimswside wrote:Freebies for good reviews

If Yelp is offering to write good reviews in exchange for freebies, sure, that's bad. But I've seen nothing approaching proof that this is what they've done. If they have said "give us a free party and you will surely get more positive reviews," I see very little difference between that and an ad agency showing stats which say that their clients sales have gone up whenever they ran a certain type of campaign. It strikes me as a normal, perfectly ethical sales practice. As a potential Yelp reader, I am thankful to be aware of such practices, and that awareness allows me to take Yelp reviews with a healthy grain of salt.

4 out of 5 dentists prefer Trident gum for their patients who chew gum. Wow. 70% of people surveyed preferred Pepsi over Coke. Right. Rocco Dispirito loves some brand I can’t remember of frozen dinners. Sure he does. I find Yelp’s practices way more above board than your average, widely accepted advertising practices.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that any potential nastiness surrounding Yelp is going to rub off on all of the other food sites. The relationship between restaurants and online food criticism is already a little testy, even without the spectre of mafia-esque extortion schemes. And as is also usually the case, any careful explanations about the differences between Yelp and a place like LTH will probably fall on deaf and/or ignorant ears. The potential for restaurant backlash is great if any of this is proven to be true.

But we'll see.