The Universal Gringo

Where I grew up, in Queens, right at the edge of the Nassau County Line on Long Island, a genre of Chinese restaurants evolved, serving what we rainbow-aware chow explorers have come to recognize as 'Jewish Chinese'.

FYI: JC menus were characterized by shrimp with lobster sauce, sweet and sour pork, pu-pu platters (preferably flaming), won-ton soup, chow mein, lobster cantonese and so forth. Over time, these places have evolved, but rest assured that the stalwarts and the menu core persist.

Last night my bride agitated for Chinese. Currently, outside of our excellent Atlanta Penang and better than passable dim-sum, our recently favored and carefully cultivated Cantonese/Hong Kong and Shanghai stalwarts seem one by one to have embarked on a serious downhill slide.

Long story short: we drove over to Atlanta's equivalent to Jackson Heights or Devon Ave, and braved Bamboo Garden for Indian Chinese. I had tried another such place about a year ago, and had been under impressed.

This time was no different. Plate after plate of fried food, garnished universally with slivered ginger, sichuan red peppers, onion and bell pepper. No lack of MSG. No bursts or flavor, little refinement or emphasis on balance or freshness. Typical Saturday night manager's exhortation to try the chef's rendition of lobster.

'I only eat lobster when its really fresh' I demurred.

'Our chef steams them as soon as they come in, not to worry' said the manager. Oy veh.

So I'm sitting there, and in the front of my mind was the phone call I had received just before we went out from a business friend, Ahmed, who lives in Wheeling. Ahmed, UK raised, who loves his hookahs of fruit flavored sheeshah and promises me world class falafel next time I get up to Chicago (will report back).

"Chinese?" said Ahmed. "Its the biggest thing in India".

Here's what I pictured. The food on our table, 250 Million middle class South Asians, Saturday night eating it--Indian Chinese. And laughed, thinking about a skein of Long Island JC restaurants Saturday night serving Jewish Chinese.

Can anyone really say that the perjorative 'gringo' is rightly reserved for those of us native to Los Estados Unidos?

Somewhere, a long time ago, I read an epistle on cuban chinese restaurants, and I have been unsuccessfully on the lookout for one for many years. French chinese is well known and respected of course, and I believe I have ranted about the horrors of Dutch chinese, with its intense reliance on tomato sauce, on CH once or twice.

Depends on how you mean Gringo, though.

Haven't seen much of you in Chicago lately. Stop by sometime.

As long as we're in non-food chat, let me stretch the point a little and recommend Christine Garcia's Monkey Hunting.

"Curiously, Garcia also grew up wondering how there came to be the great Chinese-Cuban restaurants on Manhattan's Upper West Side, how she came to eat her black beans with chow mein and why the Chinese waiters spoke Spanish" http://www.weeklyplanet.com/2003-05-07/top_pick.html

So she did some research and wrote a lovely and fascinating novel. Which, as I recall, has almost nothing to do with food.

I had a similar out of body experience eating Chinese food in Israel. You might thing aha, Jewish Chinese food (which it was), but the waiters spoke Hebrew with a Chinese accent. Now that was a strange twist.

This made me think of French-Vietnamese,Julie Mai's Le Bistro.I have heard mention that they moved and others they closed.But there was no date on the articles,read online.Can anyone confirm?

hattyn wrote:This made me think of French-Vietnamese,Julie Mai's Le Bistro.I have heard mention that they moved and others they closed.But there was no date on the articles,read online.Can anyone confirm?

Hattyn,

Please excuse my curiousity. You seem to have a lot of news/tips at your disposal in terms of the names of places in Chicagoland and they type of food that they serve. I would like to know if you have ever eaten at any of them? Do you have any first hand knowledge of anyplace in Chicago that you would like to share with us?

I had to abdicate to the high muckety muck grand poobah.I meant to respond earlier.The mostly on topic response is I have alot of time on my hands.As I probably mentioned in one of these threads most of these references are things I have read or family and friends have told me.Circumstances prevent much dining out currently.Since I get to read alot I can reference all sorts of things that I have little to no experience with.Not just in the area of food as I think I have originated or responded to topics mentioning head shops,GLBT bars,survivalism and porn.More theory than practice.For now!Someone else mentioned this. Sorry this isn't more helpful.Trying to learn and inform and have a sense of humor.I did notice you went from being right here right now to back in action to poised and ready. But really you are in Chicago?

Steve Drucker wrote:Can anyone really say that the perjorative 'gringo' is rightly reserved for those of us native to Los Estados Unidos?

I've had the misfortune of going out for Italian food in Singapore. I was taken out by Asian co-workers who all raved about the place and felt that they would give me a taste of home by going to an Italian restaurant. If it weren't for the red and white checkered tablecloths, I would not have been able to tell the difference from the Chinese place we went the night before. It was then I realized that a man from Singapore travelling to the US to your average Chinese-American restaurant would probably have the same reaction.

hattyn wrote:I had to abdicate to the high muckety muck grand poobah.I meant to respond earlier.The mostly on topic response is I have alot of time on my hands.As I probably mentioned in one of these threads most of these references are things I have read or family and friends have told me.Circumstances prevent much dining out currently.Since I get to read alot I can reference all sorts of things that I have little to no experience with.Not just in the area of food as I think I have originated or responded to topics mentioning head shops,GLBT bars,survivalism and porn.More theory than practice.For now!Someone else mentioned this. Sorry this isn't more helpful.Trying to learn and inform and have a sense of humor.I did notice you went from being right here right now to back in action to poised and ready. But really you are in Chicago?

I'm not sure what you meant by abdicating to the muckety muck grand poobah, but surely you eat something. Even if you do not go out to eat, why not go to the shopping & cooking section and tell us about some of the dishes you eat and/or cook at home?

P.S. Although I travel a lot, I live and am currently in Chicago on the Northwest side.

Poobah owns the computer so I could not reply immediately.As I've stated elsewhere on this site it is hard to cook for my hh with their tastes.I prefer to cook enough to feed an army but because of whatever they will or won't eat for health,moral or taste issues the menu is limited.They all seem to like my turkey chili which the ones who have moved asked for the recipe.Never the same twice.

Hi,

I had a Chinese meal in Switzerland, which was the flattest tasting Chinese meal I ever had. Flat tasting was not what made it memorable, there was something not-quite-right, which sent me in search of bathrooms for the next 24 hours.

My Dad loves to describe how 'spicey' Chinese food is interpreted in different countries. 'Spicey' Chinese food in Hungary should be taken very, very seriously. Whereas in Italy, 'spicey' Chinese food is so wimpy why did they bother mentioning 'spicey.'

I went to a Chinese restaurant in Wellington, New Zealand where upon seating they delivered to the table a complimentary stack of white bread. I mean Wonder Bread stacked 8 slices tall. I remember almost nothing else beyond the bread.

I went to a Korean restaurant in Sidney, Australia where I shocked the staff by knowing exactly what I wanted without seeing the menu. Unlike closed-off Korean restaurants we observe here in Chicago, this was a bright, open space where pedestrians could look in to see what's cooking. Still having some knowledge of Korean food, especially since I had never graced their restaurant before, shocked the staff. During the evening, they all took turns coming over to visit to confirm for themselves this weird creature who arrived: me!

All it takes is watching a few episodes of Iron Chef to realize there are Japanese versions of a lot of cuisines. I believe that "Italian" food is especially popular in Japan, but with an odd, sugarery tomato sauce. One can get a version of Italian-Japanese spaghetti at Mitsuwa Market in Arlington Heights, but I got to confess, I have never tried.

On the other hand, when I lived in Wales, I tried, at various times, "American" restaurants. Just as to many in the US, certain Mexican restaurants are more an excuse to drink--think Lalo's or El Jardin--American restaurants were all about, to Brits, fancy cocktails. And of course, the food hardly seemed "American" to me.

Rob

Vital Information wrote:All it takes is watching a few episodes of Iron Chef to realize there are Japanese versions of a lot of cuisines. I believe that "Italian" food is especially popular in Japan, but with an odd, sugarery tomato sauce. One can get a version of Italian-Japanese spaghetti at Mitsuwa Market in Arlington Heights, but I got to confess, I have never tried.

On the other hand, when I lived in Wales, I tried, at various times, "American" restaurants. Just as to many in the US, certain Mexican restaurants are more an excuse to drink--think Lalo's or El Jardin--American restaurants were all about, to Brits, fancy cocktails. And of course, the food hardly seemed "American" to me.

Rob

VI,

Did you try any of the Chicago themed restaurants in London run by a guy with the last name of Payton (no relation to Walter...the guy is white)? I couldn't resist, but in retrospect, I wish I had.

stevez wrote:

Vital Information wrote:All it takes is watching a few episodes of Iron Chef to realize there are Japanese versions of a lot of cuisines. I believe that "Italian" food is especially popular in Japan, but with an odd, sugarery tomato sauce. One can get a version of Italian-Japanese spaghetti at Mitsuwa Market in Arlington Heights, but I got to confess, I have never tried.

On the other hand, when I lived in Wales, I tried, at various times, "American" restaurants. Just as to many in the US, certain Mexican restaurants are more an excuse to drink--think Lalo's or El Jardin--American restaurants were all about, to Brits, fancy cocktails. And of course, the food hardly seemed "American" to me.

Rob

VI,

Did you try any of the Chicago themed restaurants in London run by a guy with the last name of Payton (no relation to Walter...the guy is white)? I couldn't resist, but in retrospect, I wish I had.

Actually, I did. Imagine going a whole year without a slab of BBQ ribs. So, perhaps they were not that good, but they seemed pretty good at the time.

Likewise, when I lived in the UK, there was a Baskin Robbins in Leicister Square in London. One day I stumbled on it (I did not live in London), and had one of their canned whipped cream, high fructose corn syrup "hot fudge" sundaes, and boy did it hit the spot.

There are two somewhat related issues in this thread. On one hand, you have foods that were kinda created to appeal to one group, and the new creation somewhat bastadarizes the original, maybe to take into account dietary restrictions or available products, but some people have grown to love the new product--c.f., Evil Ronnie's search for pressed duck. Then, there is food from one's homeland that one seeks when abroad, and the various versions thereof. Here, the nostalgia often makes the stuff taste better than the acutal food.


Rob

You might thing aha, Jewish Chinese food

For some time, I thought Chinese-American food was primarily a Jewish invention (sheltered tot that I was). Our local ethnic joint, growing up in Highland Park in the 60's, was a mediocre Chinese place, though it seemed pretty good at the time. And when we wanted really good Chinese, we hiked to Skokie - Chinatown being unthinkably remote back then.

Also, in the 70's, when traveling internationally, you could always count on running into Americans if you dined at the local Chinese place. Stupid anecdote: I had dinner one night at a Chinese place in Paris with my Mom, and sat next to some American college girls, who we spoke with a little. A week later I was in Manhattan on a subway platform, and standing next to me was one of them. In the movies, it would be fate, but we merely acknowledged the strange twist, and hopped on the train quite separately.

It seems to me we have mined this mirror-image vein extensively in the past, where "American food" (whatever the hell that is) abroad roughly relates to what we might eat here, as say American-Thai relates to what one might eat in Thailand. And how if one wants the real things, one must work to get it. Having said that, "American-food" places abroad do seem to be more concept places run by locals, than real American-food cooked by real Americans but tailored for local tastes, in my experience (Bob Payton being sort of an exception). This may mean that there is not really any secret menu opportunity, i.e. a way to get different dishes, or versions of the dishes made in a more authentic way.

Does anyone have any stories about dining in an American place abroad, and getting food cooked especially the way we might eat it here? Just curious.

As long as we're in non-food chat, let me stretch the point a little and recommend Christine Garcia's Monkey Hunting.

"Curiously, Garcia also grew up wondering how there came to be the great Chinese-Cuban restaurants on Manhattan's Upper West Side, how she came to eat her black beans with chow mein and why the Chinese waiters spoke Spanish" http://www.weeklyplanet.com/2003-05-07/top_pick.html

Thank you Ann for the reference to the book, and the info pointing me to the Upper West Side for my Cuban-chinese quest.

dicksond wrote:Does anyone have any stories about dining in an American place abroad, and getting food cooked especially the way we might eat it here? Just curious.

The only story in that vein that I have has to do with the Chow Poodle wanting a cup of "real coffee" while we were in Paris. She likes her coffee like she likes her men...white and weak. A trip to McDonald's filled the bill for her in nearly every European country we visited.

stevez wrote:

dicksond wrote:Does anyone have any stories about dining in an American place abroad, and getting food cooked especially the way we might eat it here? Just curious.

The only story in that vein that I have has to do with the Chow Poodle wanting a cup of "real coffee" while we were in Paris. She likes her coffee like she likes her men...white and weak. A trip to McDonald's filled the bill for her in nearly every European country we visited.

To me, when I was in Europe, McDonalds was clean bathrooms AND great big glasses of icey diet coke. Otherwise I was forever thisty.

dicksond wrote:Somewhere, a long time ago, I read an epistle on cuban chinese restaurants, and I have been unsuccessfully on the lookout for one for many years. ..

Depends on how you mean Gringo, though.

Haven't seen much of you in Chicago lately. Stop by sometime.

Starting back in the late sixties in NYC's upper west side around 116th & Broadway were a slew of Cuban Chinese places. Diners really. Greasy, open all the time. You could get both Cuban and Chinese fare. La Principessa was the best of them, and other than cheap it wasn't really that good. I imagine a few survive.

There's a memory bouncing around my head from my stay in Central Mexico that whispers that the word gringo' is more than slightly perjorative in tangible linguistic connotation if not actual meaning. Perhaps the more bi-lingual can enlighten us?

Chicago visits look to be cranking up this fall.

Gringo is pretty pejorative, especially when used to describe a particular person, as opposed to a style of something. I wouldn't be too offended by a burrito gringo, for example, but I would be uncomfortable if the guy at the taqueria asked, Que quieres, gringo?

I've been involved in the Chinese-Cuban discussions and have done some research. Here's a summary: Large Chinese immigration to Cuba for railroad work in the 1800's just as in the US West. Surprising number of Cuban families with some Chinese somewhere (including my in-laws extended family). Prominent but stagnant Chinatown in Havana. Little in the way of Chinese-Cuban fusion, from what I can gather, save garlicky fried rice that shares some basic similarities with moros y cristianos and some pork or chicken "fricases" flavored largely with ginger and soy sauce.

The most notable restaurants in the US were those in NYC, mentioned above, and pretty much universally critiqued as not very good.

One old stallwart in Tampa, Arco-Iris, continues as a Cuban/Chinese and is quite good.