Brewing hard cider questions

I'm planning on brewing a 5 gallon batch of hard cider this fall. I have a decent amount of experience brewing beer, but this will be my first try at cider. There is quite a bit of conflicting information on the web about how to do it, so I'm wondering if anyone here has some experience they can share.

Ultimately I'd like to get some cider pressed locally and make a dry sparkling cider. Any suggestions of good local sources for fresh unpasteurized cider?

I've done this many times. I usually get my cider from the local farmer's market - just be sure there's no potassium sorbate added - it'll kill your yeast.

Beyond that, if you're used to brewing beer, it's pretty easy. I like to use a non-attenuative yeast, like Wyeast 1338, but even with that the resulting product can be pretty dry. For a little sweetness, you might add lactose, or even aspartame or sucralose.

Let it ferment out, clarify with gelatin if desired, then add about 1/3 cup corn sugar before bottling for the sparkle.

And because there aren't any hops in there, you don't have to limit yourself to brown bottles.

Enjoy!

I "brewed" (if you can call pouring 5 gallons of apple juice in a carboy and adding yeast brewing) a batch on 7/16. I used Mott's Unsweetened Apple Cider from CostCo and Red Star Montrachet yeast for a 1.050 OG. It has been sitting in a secondary in a closet since 7/30. It was at 1.006 when I racked, imagine it is even lower now.

CostCo has Martinelli Premium Cider right now that I will probably grab to get a second batch going.

I plan to back sweeten with some canned concentrate when I keg (after adding potassium sorbate to stop fermentation).

My sample when racking was quite tasty!

Jamie

Ok lets call it "fermenting" hard cider rather than brewing =)

Thanks for the input. I read about a lot of people using store bought cider, which initially suprised me. Do you think there is any point getting fresh cider (aside from the fun, if you like that sort of thing) or is the Costco stuff going to be pretty much the same in the end? From what I've read it seems like so long as there are no preservatives and so forth, it will work pretty well.

I will be bottling this and I want it sparkling so obviously if I want it sweetened at all I need to use something that the yeast cant feed on in the bottle. I have some lactose left over from a sweet stout I brewed, would that do or will it give some sort of off flavor?

Thanks!

Lactose should work well - I meant lactose when I typed maltose above.

I've always thought the unfiltered, cloudy cider has more flavor than the prepackaged clear stuff. The cloudy bits can be fined out with gelatin in the secondary to produce a clear cider.

It seems many use Splenda to sweeten ciders when bottling. Not sure what that would do for the taste though as I have never had Splenda.

It seems that many people have great luck making ciders with store bought juice. For me it was a matter of convenience as it is hard to find nice fresh pressed cider in July. Not to mention, I think mine was like $3 a gallon so not too much on the line.

I'd say make two ciders, one with pressed cider, one with juice and see what you think!

This reminds me, I need to make another batch with the Cotes yeast I grabbed.

Jamie

I like the 2 cider idea. It will be a cider-off, me vs. me!

Man, that means i need to buy another couple carboys... I will report back in in a year when the ciders are done =)

I have made cider several times and I've use everything from fresh organic cider at $6 a gallon to Dominick's brand at $3 a gallon. I've made the best cider and have had the best luck with the Dominick's brand. Although it has been a few years since I've last made cider, so check on the availability. The key as a previous poster is one with no preservatives as this will kill the yeast. Pasteurized is fine as you'll end up heating part of your cider on the stove and helps in that you won't need to heat all of it. Here is what I've done for a 5 gallon batch its easy and you don't need to add lactose or other funny sweeteners...

1-1/2 to 2 gallons on stove bring to boil covered (with 5 sticks cinnamon and tblspn cloves if you'd like to add some spice). Add 5 lbs of honey at this point, using some of the hot liquid to rinse out the honey container. Don't use some fancy honey, I used clove honey that I'd get from the Egg store in Berwyn; but I think they went out of business. If you used Pasteurized cider, add two gallons right to your carboy pour the hot cider directly into the carboy that has the 2 gallons cold. Strain out the cloves and cinn. sticks at this point. Using the remaining gallon bring your fluid level up to 5 gallons and place the air-lock on your carboy. Let this sit until room temperature. I've used ale yeast, lager yeast and wine yeast; both liquid and dry. Dry wine yeast works the best, IMO. Pitch this at room temperature, place in a dark corner and then monitor to see when fermentation takes off. For best results find a room that is cool, its best to do this in late Fall, you ideally want temperatures in the room to hover about 55F but not less then 40F. Keep an eye on the carboy and the alcohol content write down your specific gravity which you should check every two to three days after you've noticed a decrease in the yeast activity. Once the SG seem to plateau out but not completely asymptotic you are ready to bottle. To prime the cider for bottling add one 12 oz bottle of real maple syrup, you should heat the syrup above 160F either in a pan or if you wish to replace some of the cider you've lost from checking the specific gravity over the last month to two (depending on temperature), heat it with a small amount of fresh cider to get all the syrup out of the bottle. Bottle and cap right from the carboy alternatively, you might be able to transfer to a corney keg, but I've never tried that but would like too. Should be ready to drink in about one month from the time you bottled. This version gets better with age. At about one year out, this stuff is the best. You will have some sediment so decant the bottles into a glass to drink. Final alcohol will be about 10%, but it'll be sweetish, not dry and will be crisp reminiscent of baked apples.

Report back if you go through with this.

I am about to make my second cider in a few minutes. Bought 5 gallons of Martinelli Cider from CostCo ($5.99/gal) and will be using Red Star Cotes de Blanc yeast.

Will be interesting to compare this to my previous batch using Mott's Apple juice ($3ish a gallon at CostCo) using Montrachet yeast. The first batch will be kegged once this batch is ready for secondary (2-3 weeks).

Jamie

I've made cider a couple times using cider from Jewel. I kept it simple and used just 5 gallons of cider and several cans of frozen apple juice concentrate. I fermented with Pasteur Champagne yeast from the homebrew store and used dextrose to prime the cider before bottling. This produced a fairly dry, clear sparkling cider (very sparkling!). The key here is patience, 1 week to 10 days in a primary fermenter, 2-3 weeks in a secondary fermenter, and at least 3-4 weeks bottle conditioning.

Good luck and enjoy!

JasonM wrote:The key here is patience

I can't agree more. Cider ages very well. Bottle, wait ten years, then enjoy!

Been a couple of years but the last batch of cider and honey - "cyser" if I use the correct name was amazing. I was living in the Lansing MI area and talked one of the local farmers into selling me unpasturized cider ( yes I know this is illegal and do not recommend this activity!). Forgot about it in my trunk for a better part of a week, only to find the normally squarish milk sized gallons were now round. Luckily none had blown their caps - so much for having to worry about the selection on yeast!!!!

I boiled only one of the five gallons and added 10 pounds of honey from the same farmer - dozen cinnamon sticks and small 15-20 cloves. Allowed to cool and carboyed it . A very active fermentation cycle 3-4 days and it was done. Drained it off for a clearing, removed the spice bag and let rest for a week.

Champagne dry and absolutely delicious, I think it is time for another batch.
Good luck all.

Jamieson22 wrote:I am about to make my second cider in a few minutes. Bought 5 gallons of Martinelli Cider from CostCo ($5.99/gal) and will be using Red Star Cotes de Blanc yeast.

I just took the plunge into cider making last week, partly due to this thread, partly because I've been meaning to get around to brewing/fermenting something other than beer. I've got two 3-gallon batches going, both with the Costco cider amped up with 2 pounds extra light dry malt extract, but one with an additional infusion of spices and one third some sort of cranberry-blackberry (I've already forgotten) juice.

How long does your Cotes de Blanc yeast take to ferment out? It's exactly the same yeast I'm using, and it took it a good 48-72 hours before I saw any bubbling in the airlock. Granted, my cellar is a bit cool (~60 F), so I'm sure that will effect it. I'm just curious, as I learned it's a pretty slow yeast, and I'm used to vigorous bubbling from my beers that take 3-5 days before slowing down. This one is going a bubble every three seconds or so, slowly and steadily.

(Oh, and just for fun, I took some leftover juice and threw in some sourdough starter and an airlock. I'm wondering if mixed 50-50 with straight juice it'll make a tangy lambic-like product, or if it will end up completely wretched and foul prison wine.)

Binko wrote:
How long does your Cotes de Blanc yeast take to ferment out? It's exactly the same yeast I'm using, and it took it a good 48-72 hours before I saw any bubbling in the airlock. Granted, my cellar is a bit cool (~60 F), so I'm sure that will effect it. I'm just curious, as I learned it's a pretty slow yeast, and I'm used to vigorous bubbling from my beers that take 3-5 days before slowing down. This one is going a bubble every three seconds or so, slowly and steadily.

The Cotes tore through my cider. Think krausen rose and dropped with a few days, though mine was fermenting at 77 or so. Normally would be lower but unfortunately we had a bit of a warm streak when I made it, and didn't do anything to control temps.

It is still sitting in the carboy; figured I'll rack to secondary once the yeast settles out a bit.

Anyone have a good idea of how many concentrate cans of juice to use to backsweeten a cider??

Jamie

Oh, wow. Yeah, sounds like you've got a much more vigorous fermentation than me. My airlock's bubbling away steadily, but there is no significant foaming on the top of my cider. You can see the CO2 bubbles on the side of the carboy, but the cider itself doesn't have a thick and foamy head or anything. I'm sure the temp has a lot to do with it, because there's plenty of sugar for the yeast to tear through in the cider & malt mix.

Bionko, just curious as to how you added your DME? Did you boil that separately in water, just mix into the cider or heat in some cider?

Jamie

I took about a half gallon to three quarters of a gallon of cider and boiled that with the DME. (Actually, I didn't really boil it that much--maybe 5 minutes tops, just enough to dissolve the malt). I put this in a carboy, topped it off with cider to make three gallons, put in three campden tablets (just to be safe, I'm pretty sure it wasn't necessary given I was using Martinelli Cider, which is pasteurized, if I understand correctly), then pitched the yeast 24 hours later.

Unfortunately, I didn't take any hydrometer measurements, so I have no idea what the starting gravity was for three gallons cider + 2 pounds extra light DME.

Binko wrote:Unfortunately, I didn't take any hydrometer measurements, so I have no idea what the starting gravity was for three gallons cider + 2 pounds extra light DME.

Should be easy enough to figure out. The OG of the Martinelli's Cider is 1.056 I believe. So just add in the potential of your DME.
Jamie

Jamieson22 wrote:

Binko wrote:Unfortunately, I didn't take any hydrometer measurements, so I have no idea what the starting gravity was for three gallons cider + 2 pounds extra light DME.

Should be easy enough to figure out. The OG of the Martinelli's Cider is 1.056 I believe. So just add in the potential of your DME.
Jamie

I have no idea how to make this calculation. I believe the DME I used was Muntons extra light. My intent was to get the cider in the 8%-9% ABV range. Was I close?

Binko wrote:I have no idea how to make this calculation. I believe the DME I used was Muntons extra light. My intent was to get the cider in the 8%-9% ABV range. Was I close?

You can convert the potential of your extract using the following formula:
OG (in points) = 36 * W / V (LME), and
OG (in points) = 46 * W / V (DME),
where W = weight of extract (in lbs.) and V = volume of the batch (in gallons)

So you would have 1.031 from extract added to 1.056 cider = 1.086. Assume attenuation of 100% and you will be at 11.29% ABV.

Jamie

Holy canolli. I was aiming at more-or-less that starting gravity, but I forgot to consider that cider ferments down to 1.000 or even just under. Yipes. That's about a pound more of DME than I needed. We'll see what happens.... I suppose I could always dilute if I want to, right? Then again, would I want to?

Binko wrote:Holy canolli. I was aiming at more-or-less that starting gravity, but I forgot to consider that cider ferments down to 1.000 or even just under. Yipes. That's about a pound more of DME than I needed. We'll see what happens.... I suppose I could always dilute if I want to, right? Then again, would I want to?

Well, if you are bottling and want it carbed, it will be quite dry. You could always mix it (when pouring into a glass) with something non-alcoholic to sweeten it.

Since most people seem to add sugar/honey/etc to ciders to boost OG, can't see how your ABV will be a bad thing.

Jamie

Binko wrote:(Oh, and just for fun, I took some leftover juice and threw in some sourdough starter and an airlock. I'm wondering if mixed 50-50 with straight juice it'll make a tangy lambic-like product, or if it will end up completely wretched and foul prison wine.)

Well, I just took a whiff of it, a week later, and it sure as hell smells like a lambic, which is good, because it started off smelling like rotten eggs by day two or three, but that hydrogen sulfide smell is gone. I'm still not quite ready to take a taste, but I'll be racking it soon enough, so we'll see if there's any potential here. I kinda wish now I had a little malt mixed into the leftover juice.

Hmmm...I racked the "sourdough" cranberry cider into two one-gallon glass jugs and had a taste of it today. Surprisingly, it actually tastes quite good. It's not quite as sour as I would like it yet, but it's got a good lambic-like kick to it. So, to further my experiment, I didn't have quite enough fermenting cranberry juice to make two gallons, so I filled one gallon jug with straight cranberry, and the second one with about one part cranberry to one part amber ale homebrew. Ideally, I would have cut it with something a bit lighter, but that's the only stuff I got lying around. The great experiment continues....

It's starting to look like a laboratory around here. I normally only have one 5-gallon batch of beer going at a time, but now I've got four different batches of fermenting fruit juices, plus some ryemeal starter for some homemade zurek/bialy barszcz/white borscht (recipe will be posted eventually.)

A little off-topic, but out of curiosity, what method did you use to make your sourdough starter? I had an awesome one going for a couple years but now its just a frightening little off color jar in the back of my fridge =) I ask because a lot of people create "sourdough" using bakers yeast, which obviously isn't a wild yeast starter.

Is the yeast in a traditional wild sourdough the same airborne yeast that might be present in a lambic? Some of the sour flavor in lambic also comes from bacterial fermentation so it makes sense that a sourdough wouldn't be as sour as an actual lambic - you're probably missing the bacterial stuff. Fun experiment - please keep us posted.

The sourdough was passed on from a local chef, who said it's been in his family for 50 years, or something like that. I don't ever let a commercial yeast touch my sourdough starter. I also have a San Francisco sourdough starter in the fridge, but I used the other one for this experiment.

I believe the flavor in sourdough and lambics are both partly caused by lactobacillus (and often also pediococcus) bacteria. There are a whole mess of microorganisms, both yeasts and bacteria, that work together to create the complex flavor in a lambic. I have no idea what types of microorganisms are in my starter, nor do I have any idea whether there is significant crossover between sourdough and lambic yeast/bacteria strains. I'm assuming there is, as I've used unflavored, unfiltered lambics as a based for sourdough starters before, with success (although, to be honest, I don't know whether it was the yeast/bacteria in the lambic that made the starter take off, or whether it's the yeasts already present in the rye flour that were cultivated.) It's all just one big crapshoot.

So, yeah, the fermented juice is sour, it's just not SUPERsour yet. There's definitely plenty of souring bacteria present--after all, it wouldn't be a sourdough starter without those lactobacilli.

Jamieson22 wrote:

Binko wrote:Holy canolli. I was aiming at more-or-less that starting gravity, but I forgot to consider that cider ferments down to 1.000 or even just under. Yipes. That's about a pound more of DME than I needed. We'll see what happens.... I suppose I could always dilute if I want to, right? Then again, would I want to?

Well, if you are bottling and want it carbed, it will be quite dry. You could always mix it (when pouring into a glass) with something non-alcoholic to sweeten it.

Since most people seem to add sugar/honey/etc to ciders to boost OG, can't see how your ABV will be a bad thing.

Jamie

I bought a few pounds of lactose, just in case, but it looks like the DME actually has done quite a bit to leave some residual sweetness. I racked it about a week and a half ago into the secondary, and I'm getting about a bubble a minute or so out of the cider today. We're down to a 1.015 gravity, so it doesn't look to me like this thing is going to ferment totally out. I had a taste of it and it's quite good. Very mellow, appley-white winey sort of flavor to it. I think when carbonated it's going to be quite fantastic. I might bottle a small batch with lactose, but I'm not sure it needs it. It's not "sweet" per se, but it's not bone-dry either (as the final gravity would suggest).

At any rate, this has been so much fun I bought another four three-gallon carboys, and I've got some perry (fermented pear juice, with 2 pounds dark brown sugar) and jerkum (fermented plum, straight juice) going. I'm actually quite looking forward to the jerkum, as the juice was made from four different types of plums, topped of with prune juice, and had a nice strong tartness to it that I think will retain its character after the yeast is done doing its thing.

My next batch is going to be apple cider with dark malt extract, or a combo of dark malt and dark brown sugar. I'm also toying with the idea of introducing nuts to the flavor profile, but that may be a separate batch off the main batch of cider.

Hey, guys & gals...new to the forum, but began a regular fermentation room in my home back in July. Have had REALLY great results with 3 gallon batches that take about 5 weeks before bottling. I live in Eastern Washington, one of the "apple capitols" of the U.S., but had a hell of a time getting fresh pressed cider, despite e-mails & phone calls to local orchards.

I HAVE had EXCELLENT results using the Safeway "O" Organics brand of unfiltered juice. The batch I'm bottling tonight uses a Wheat Beer Yeast, is fairly dry, but with priming (using Cooper's Carbonation Drops) will be barely sweet.

I used regular brewers yeast on my first batch, and while delicious, it tended to be a little TOO sweet.

Welcome to the board robin!

I recently racked my 5g from primary to a secondary fermenter and it tasted great. I used the Martenelli brand of cider whcih I got from costco. Flash pasteurized I guess. Ended up using Wyeasts Cider yeast. Might do another batch with some of the Red Star Cotes de blanc I have in the fridge.

Binko - I missed your last post - everything sounds great. Particularly interested to see how your dark DME cider does. My cider was at 1.004 after a month in primary - it tasted about perfect to my taste and if I had a kegging system set up I would have killed off the yeast right there and force carbed. I'm pretty sure It will drop to almost 1.0 or under in secondary and bottling so well see how it turns out. I'm going to add some lactose to half of it if that's the case.

Whatever happened to your sourdough cider?

The sourdough cider? I drank it all. The stuff mixed with the beer didn't work out so well (it tasted oxidized--wet carboard--I'm guessing because I took absolutely no care and just splashed finished bottles of beer in with the cranberry-blackberry juice mix.) But the straight stuff? I thought it was pretty good. So did my girlfriend. I want to try it once more, this time with a gallon of straight apple juice, maybe with a touch of malt or brown sugar. If that turns out well, I'll try a three gallon batch. Problem is, I've got all 6 three-gallon carboys filled up!

Here's what's fermenting, from oldest to youngest:

1) 3 gallons apple juice, 2 pounds light DME, Cote de Blanc yeast - this is tasty. It still hasn't fermented out, as I topped it off a week ago
2) 2 gallons apple juice, 1 gallon cranberrry-blackberry juice, 2 pounds light DME, Cote de Blanc. Similar to above, but with a bit more character and flavor
3) 2 gallons plum juice (juiced from 4 varieties), 3.3 lbs amber LME, 1 gallon water, Cote de blanc
4) 3 gallons pear juice (various crushed pears, Looza pear nectar, topped off with Gerber Pear Juice in secondary), 2 pounds brown sugar, Cote de blanc & L1118 champagne yeast
5) 2 gallons apple juice (1 gallon of it crushed and juiced Red Delicious), 3.3 lbs dark LME, 1 gallon water, Irish Ale (Wyeast 1084)
6) 2 gallons apple juice, 3.3 lbs gold LME, 1 gallon water steeped with 1 pound gingerroot, Cote de blanc

So far, I'm liking the plum the best. The first two have mellowed and taste pretty decent. They still need time to ferment out and, since I topped them off, the yeast has restarted and the cider is cloudy again (it was crystal clear before). The perry is also still lightly bubbling away, and still a bit rough around the edges. Very yeasty nose. This will take at least a month, I'd guess, before it really becomes drinkable. But I think it has potential.

I tasted the dark malted cider when I racked it (after a week) to the secondary. Still VERY yeasty, and a good amount of sulfurous funk going on with it. It's not what I would call drinkable at the moment, but it's only been about a week and a half or two weeks.

What I would like to do next is try mixing Trader Joes 100% cranberry juice (the super sour, super bitter stuff) about 1:8 apple juice. I think the straight-up cranberry would do well to add complexity and character to the sweet dessert apples that are used in store-bought ciders. From what I understand, a good cider has a blend of "harsher" apples in it (even crabapples), and I think cranberry would do well to replicate this. Obviously, I'm not the first person to dream up cranberry in cider, but I think it will go a long way to making it more interesting.

Also, over the weekend I decided to do a little taste-testing of various ciders (other than the Woodchuck and Hornsby's) and was quite surprised at the very wide range of flavor profiles. I tried Aspall's Dry English Draft, West County Cider (Michigan), Samuel Smith's Organic and JK Scrumpy's Farmhouse (still cider.) All over the place in flavor, from the light and refreshing Samuel Smith's to the funky, raisiny, syruppy JK Scrumpy's. All of them, though exhibited a slightly yeasty, funky note that the more commonly known commercial ciders don't. It was quite fun sampling and I hope to find more to taste.