budrichard wrote:But the agreement at the best could only have 10 year old or maybe 12 for sale. The 15 and 21 year old currently offered would have had to come from original stocks.

That's not a logical conclusion. Van Winkle production did not just change one day from Stitzel-Weller to Buffalo Trace (for example, there was some intervening production at Bernheim), so understanding what "original stocks" means in this context is complicated.

What is known almost universally in the bourbon community these days is that the 15 year is no longer a Stitzel-Weller produced product. Julian himself said that starting with the Fall 2011 release, the 15 year is a Buffalo Trace produced whiskey. Prior to that, he's been quoted as saying it was for at least some time a mixture of SW and BT product.

Now, as the ink isn't 15 years old on the agreement between Van Winkle & Buffalo Trace, the correct conclusion to draw is that Julian has done an amazing job of selecting barrels to fill his bottles that were produced by Buffalo Trace prior to their agreement. I'm sure they gave him the run of the rickhouses given the high profile of the Van Winkle 15, and that they were producing a recipe that was close enough to the Pappy recipes to find some extremely comparable product. But, it's still a testament to his palate that there are so many confused as to whether the stuff in the bottle was made at SW or BT.

Personally, if I'm in the market for a teenaged (or nearly), wheated whiskey, I'm buying William Larue Weller. Cheaper and higher proof than Pappy, and tastier (imo) to boot...

Big fan of the Weller 107 proof with a big ice cube and a few min to sit

ronnie_suburban wrote:Dick,

Are you referring to the 23-year? I've never seen a 21-year.

If you like the Ancient Age, try the Ancient Ancient Age. It's lovely and a great value.

=R=

must be the 23, my brother in law didn't leave the bottle!
Been looking for the AAA but haven't found it locally yet Thanks for the info.-Dick

"I'm buying William Larue Weller."
Another Bourbon I have to find!-Dick

Great information from Julian Van Winkle, via Chuck Cowdery, via John Hansell (thanks for the link, m'th'su) . . .

It’s no secret that the Old Rip Van Winkle Distillery isn’t a distiller. It’s a marketing company, and a brand, run by Julian Van Winkle III and his son, Preston, with partners the Sazerac Company.

Van Winkle, as a brand name, was retained by the Van Winkle family when Julian’s father sold the Stitzel-Weller Distillery in 1972. Julian took over after his father died. The company continued to operate as a non-distiller producer, mostly selling whiskey made at Stitzel-Weller, which stopped distilling twenty years ago.

About ten years ago, with whiskey from Stitzel-Weller no longer available, the Van Winkles entered into a joint venture with the Sazerac Company to secure a future supply. Sazerac’s Buffalo Trace Distillery made wheated bourbon sporadically between 1991 and 1999, and in earnest after 1999. When Sazerac acquired the W. L. Weller brand in 1999, it received stocks of wheated bourbon made at the new Bernheim distillery between 1992 and 1999.

That’s where things stand now.

What's In That Bottle Of Van Winkle Anyway?

=R=

Aha! Now we know what Das is up to; and to think he told us he was "teaching"!

budrichard wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:Dick,

Are you referring to the 23-year? I've never seen a 21-year.

If you like the Ancient Age, try the Ancient Ancient Age. It's lovely and a great value.

=R=

must be the 23, my brother in law didn't leave the bottle!
Been looking for the AAA but haven't found it locally yet Thanks for the info.-Dick

"I'm buying William Larue Weller."
Another Bourbon I have to find!-Dick

Dick, Ancient Ancient Age or AAA hasn't been distributed here in a few years and I doubt you will find any on a shelf here. The Party Source liquor store in Bellevue Kentucky has a private bottling (10 year-86 proof) which is quite good. I think they still ship.

Ancient Age along with Blanton's, Elmer T Lee, Rock Hill Farms and Hancock's President Reserve are distilled by Sazerac at their Buffalo Trace distillery but those brands are actually owned by Age International a division of the Japanese entity Takara Shuzo. They are made from what is called the, Buffalo Trace rye bourbon #2 mash bill, which is lower corn and higher rye. The Buffalo Trace rye bourbon #1 mash bill (higher corn and lower rye) makes up the Sazerac owned brands of Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare, Stagg, Old Charter, Benchmark and Col. EH Taylor. Sazerac now owns and operates 2 other distilleries, in addition to Buffalo Trace distillery, the Tom Moore distillery in Bardstown Kentucky and the A. Smith Bowman distillery in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

Shouldn't the release of the next 15 yr Pappy be soon?
How could I procure 6 bottles?

dradeli wrote:Shouldn't the release of the next 15 yr Pappy be soon?
How could I procure 6 bottles?

It'll be out soon and will hit different parts of their distribution network over the course of several weeks (I don't know the exact length of time). But getting 6 bottles seems like a virtual impossibility unless you already deal with a seriously plugged-in retailer or broker who will hook you up. Fact is, my local liquor store received an allocation of 12 bottles last time around but they had 48 good, regular customers who'd asked about it.

I suppose you could also buy them at a premium on the secondary market. I've never checked but I'm guessing that market is thriving.

=R=

Now that eBay is not letting people sell booze it should take away some of the demand on the PVW stocks since it will be harder to flip the bottles for a profit.

Shipments to distributors should happen by the end of October but the distillery cannot say for sure. It's up to the distributor to place their order and pick up their allocation--that introduces some amount of lag time. The distillery estimates it'll be in stores by the end of the month/beginning of November.

Every good liquor store here in NYC has either a waiting list or a lottery, and typically it's limit 1 bottle (from the entire line) per customer because demand is so high. I hope you have friends who are willing to put their names into a lottery for you.

In my experience, for the few stores who don't keep a wait list, it's on the shelves for a few hours, maybe 1/2 a day. Or they don't even put it on the shelves, you have to ask for it.

Last year, the bourbon guy at Binny's on Grand Ave (between Franklin St & Wells St) said told me he never tells anybody when they have it, they don't put it on the shelf, you gotta talk to him for a while first, and he doesn't respect those who hoard Pappy.

Here are the suggested retail values for this year via Old Rip Van Winkle's Facebook page (in the comments):
10yr 107 - $39.99
12yr - $54.99
13yr Rye - $69.99
15yr - $79.99
20yr - $129.99
23yr - $249.99

Ouch. Especially when recalling what I paid last year (and felt lucky to have the privilege to pay).

kathryn wrote:Here are the suggested retail values for this year via Old Rip Van Winkle's Facebook page (in the comments):
10yr 107 - $39.99
12yr - $54.99
13yr Rye - $69.99
15yr - $79.99
20yr - $129.99
23yr - $249.99

Ouch. Especially when recalling what I paid last year (and felt lucky to have the privilege to pay).

Wow! That is a big jump, especially for the 15-year, which not too long ago came in at around $50/bottle. That's supply and demand for you.

=R=

Surprised the 23 year is that low, actually, since it's close to what it's been the last year or so and I could have sworn that I read that this 2012 bottling is the absolute last that will be entirely S-W sourced. All future bottles, plus all the younger bottles, source from Buffalo Trace, I thought.

Vitesse98 wrote:Surprised the 23 year is that low, actually, since it's close to what it's been the last year or so and I could have sworn that I read that this 2012 bottling is the absolute last that will be entirely S-W sourced. All future bottles, plus all the younger bottles, source from Buffalo Trace, I thought.

See the link in this post above for some information about what's in the bottles this year. No word in that piece about what specifically will be in next year's releases.

=R=

I was going by something mentioned in the current issue of Whisky Advocate, which I could have sworn specifically stated this 2012 bottling was the last exclusively S-W bottling. Of course, I gave my friend my issue, so I don't have it handy.

Ah, I found in the comments of that WA post the specific information I think I was thinking of (I think):

According to Julian, the Pappy 23 for the next several years is already in bottles and it’s all SW. The next time they bottle it, there will be BT in it. The next bottling of Pappy 20 will include BT.

Vitesse98 wrote:I was going by something mentioned in the current issue of Whisky Advocate, which I could have sworn specifically stated this 2012 bottling was the last exclusively S-W bottling. Of course, I gave my friend my issue, so I don't have it handy.

The article and a very good article it is, said that next year would be the first year the Buffalo Trace aged whiskey could be called 23 yr old. It also said that all the former 23 year old Pappy is already bottled and would be released, exactly how and when, who knows but I suspect over a few years to gain profit from perceived exclusivity.
Perceived and actual rarity are marketing tools that make big money.
In this case, the rarity for Pappy's may be actual but it's no better than many other bourbons, just distinctive due to its age. If you like the taste, that's one thing but most I presume are only purchasing for the perceived rarity.-Dick

the 2012 release is at Binny's now (or was there on Saturday) My local Binny's was sold out by 3pm

I got my bottle of 15. Price was up to $85 or so, vs. $50 just a year ago.

I don't have and won't have any 15 yr old Pappy's.
But it is a good example of marketing and perceived rarity, exclusivity and supply & demand.-Dick

Well, the "rarity" is reality, not perception - I believe around 7000 cases of PVW ship a year, compared to (for example) a million cases of Maker's Mark, or six million of Jim Beam (Woodford Reserve ships a mere 200,000 per year). Marketing is what gets you sales in the millions. I'd argue reputation is behind the scramble for PVW, as much as it is behind Bourbon County Stout. They're exceptional products in limited supply.

As for exclusivity, I'd say they're no more exclusive than good concert tickets. They take a bit of effort, but they're not unattainable. Fortunately, we live in a golden age of modestly priced bourbon.

Pappy price increase is totally supply and demand, but who can argue with that?

All I can say is: "Damn you people without day jobs!" Knowing it was coming in and not being able to leave was not fun.

budrichard wrote:I don't have and won't have any 15 yr old Pappy's.
But it is a good example of marketing and perceived rarity, exclusivity and supply & demand.-Dick

I think the quality speaks for itself. And it's a truly distinctive spirit. As much as I love the 23-year, it's arguable that the 15-year is the finest expression from Van Winkle. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of other American whiskies that I love -- and I have a fairly extensive collection -- but this is one of my very favorites of all time. Through a friend, I managed to get my hands on one bottle this time around, which I'm giving to a friend. But if I can find another one, I'll certainly be keeping it for myself.

=R=

I have a bottle of the 15 that I bought about 2-3 years ago that I haven't had the heart to open. After having had the 20 at the Aviary I made sure to grab a bottle of that to drink over the next year. Luckily, I picked one up at a slightly marked up price last night. Popped it open last night and just as good (if not better!) than when I had it at the Aviary. I still don't know what I'm going to do with that 15....

Bury it in the backyard until the U.S. moves to the PVW currency standard.

It's been asked before and I'm asking again, any Pappy Van Winkle in the area? Quite interested but I think I may have missed the season

hpzeeb12 wrote:It's been asked before and I'm asking again, any Pappy Van Winkle in the area? Quite interested but I think I may have missed the season

They only distribute twice a year, around Oct/November and around April. However, on their Facebook Page, they have stated there won't be a Spring release this year.

https://www.facebook.com/oldripvanwinkle?filter=2

Where on the site did you see that? I must have missed it.

In the comments on their Facebook Page - you need to filter by Posts by Others.

https://www.facebook.com/oldripvanwinkl ... 6774791470

Cal me cynical, but I'm surprised this hasn't happened before:
MORE THAN $26K IN RARE BOURBON STOLEN FROM BUFFALO TRACE DISTILLERY
http://www.state-journal.com/local%20ne ... distillery

And, honestly, not sure how they're valuing the rye at $25 (which seems low) -- the actual value is potentially higher.

I know, right?

MSRP of most of this stuff is not terrible, but the mark-up (which is out of PVW control) is ridiculous. A couple of years ago I was able to get a bottle of PVW15 for $50 with little effort. Last year I got a bottle for $80 and just a tiny bit more hustle. This year I assume I won't see a single bottle of PVW or BTAC. It is so beyond out of control that, yes, people have resorted to stealing it. It's like the bearer bonds of bourbon.