Vitesse98 wrote:It's sort of a side discussion, but is PVW even "marketed?" Do they advertise? It seems to be mostly word of mouth, accelerated year after year by the same cut and paste news stories. If it was strictly a matter of marketing, they'd find some way to make more of it.

An interesting point of comparison is the Four Roses Limited Edition 125th Anniversary bottle, distributed at PVW nil-level numbers, which came and went instantly this year with very little buzz, per se. I never even knew it was coming; blinked and missed out, it was so limited and so hard (for me) to find. Same relative lack of marketing, but didn't get that big Pappy hype push in the press, even though most everyone who found a bottle loved it. Whisky Advocate just gave it Whiskey of the Year for the second year in a row, and yet you're not going to see long "you want it; how to get it; you can't have it" pieces in the news.

Van Winkle products are marketed, but not advertised. I truly believe that Buffalo Trace has an excellent marketing department. There was some article that calls Van Winkle "a marketers dream aside from the lack of supply" and I can't say I disagree with that. As far as a brand is concerned I think it is one of the neatest out there.

Think about it - it really is an incredible brand. Who doesn't want to drink something with a 70's something guy in a 5 piece suit and a cigar on it's label. "Pappy Van Winkle's Family Reserve" - that just has an awesome ring to it. Psychologically people feel really, really special when they drink the stuff. A study was done on wine recently and it shows that people like buying and consuming more expensive bottles of wine.

Pappy is good bourbon, no doubt about it, but I've decided to pass on the endless bird dogging, begging, lies from store owners, or paying a thousand dollars a bottle for the stuff. It is not the panacea of brown liquids. It is good, but there are great, good, and even some duds in the Van Winkle line up. I have spoken to several people who truly know bourbon who have said that they think the 23yr is not good at all... Their 20 year remains one of my favorites, when I can find it at retail or get it at a good price in a bar. The 10 and 12 are also super good...I love the 10yr for an old fashioned.

Sure does provide for excellent conversation however...

Royal Lichter wrote:I have spoken to several people who truly know bourbon who have said that they think the 23yr is not good at all... Their 20 year remains one of my favorites, when I can find it at retail or get it at a good price in a bar. The 10 and 12 are also super good...I love the 10yr for an old fashioned.

Sure does provide for excellent conversation however...

I do love to chat about bourbon -- almost as much as I like drinking it.

I would heartily disagree with those who say the PVW 23-year is "not good at all." It may not be a great value (though, in today's market, even that could be argued) -- and the 2013 release is not its best showing -- but it is a fantastic bourbon, far superior to the 20-year in my opinion. While everyone's palates are different (a constant I truly appreciate), saying the 23-year is "not good at all" doesn't seem like an accurate or meaningful assessment. Are there bourbons I like better? Yes. But the PVW 23's richness and extraordinarily distinctive flavor and aroma land it squarely in my upper tier.

=R=

Do any of you folks in the know, well, know if and when Buffalo Trace will get back on track? It's been a worrying while since WL Weller 12, Old Weller Antique and Elmer T. Lee have been on the shelves at Binny's, and while they say BT just needs to catch up after a busy holiday season, I have my doubts, given the consistent shortage drumbeat. I'm worried that, if they return, there will either be a large price hike, the loss of an age statement or who knows what else. Maybe W12 will be repurposed toward making Old Rip a year-round bourbon again. And I've heard rumor that Elmer could become an annual release, especially since another Elmer variety is on its way to shelves some time in the near future. It would be sad if these staples went away.

So I got a chance to have the 15 last weekend. Had it with a small splash of water. My opinion? It's ok and the hype is more a result of clever or unintended marketing. The body is somewhat weak, the oak notes are still really tight and it's just ok. I can think of a half a dozen or so readily available bourbons at that price point I'd rather have in my hands.

And that's the great thing about bourbon, isn't it? I opened a bottle of 15 on NYE and it blew me and my wife away, and she's not a huge bourbon fan. It was so good we even enjoyed smelling the empty snifter by the sink in the morning. But I'm still cool with plenty of bottles I can pick up for well less than $80.

Vitesse98 wrote:And that's the great thing about bourbon, isn't it? I opened a bottle of 15 on NYE and it blew me and my wife away, and she's not a huge bourbon fan. It was so good we even enjoyed smelling the empty snifter by the sink in the morning. But I'm still cool with plenty of bottles I can pick up for well less than $80.

It's the great thing about all whiskey to me. There's certainly something for every taste profile you could ever want out there these days.

Vitesse98 wrote:Do any of you folks in the know, well, know if and when Buffalo Trace will get back on track? It's been a worrying while since WL Weller 12, Old Weller Antique and Elmer T. Lee have been on the shelves at Binny's, and while they say BT just needs to catch up after a busy holiday season, I have my doubts, given the consistent shortage drumbeat. I'm worried that, if they return, there will either be a large price hike, the loss of an age statement or who knows what else. Maybe W12 will be repurposed toward making Old Rip a year-round bourbon again. And I've heard rumor that Elmer could become an annual release, especially since another Elmer variety is on its way to shelves some time in the near future. It would be sad if these staples went away.

Vitesse, I don't want to advertise it (selfishly), but I did recently find Elmer T Lee, Weller Antique, and Weller Reserve on the shelf at a small liquor store in Chicago - out of respect I only bought one bottle of each - PM me and I will let you know where if you're still interested in picking some up.

Anyone hearing any word on the fall bourbon releases?

Pappy is probably at least a month or more away, but we should be seeing BTAC soon right?

IIRC usually Thanksgiving weekend

BTAC should be released any day now...better make quick friends with your spirits manager!

I scanned back, and last year it was out around oct 23.

I travel for work, really hope it comes out before my next trip.

BTAC Seems to have come and gone.... while I was on an airplane.

Bummed out for sure.

Scored a Sazerac from the 2014 BTAC release yesterday. Got "the call" at 8:30 am and was at the store by 9:15. Had about .75 oz last night. Pretty much the same as last year. Also had the 2012 and the 2003 release last week and both those were really good.

I am still searching... not feeling great though....

Scored a Stagg from my secret source earlier this week - according to the store the allocations were pretty weak this year, don't think they got any Weller. On the plus side the local stores here in WI have 4 Roses Small Batch for $22 - time to stock up.

the store I went to had 3-3-3-6 (and I think the 6 was the Stagg) last year it was double that allotment. might have been able to get the ER17 but did not want to be greedy. Pappy will be in around Thanksgiving as usual.

That sounds about like my store's allotment - could have sent another person in to get a different bottle but also didn't want to be greedy. During last year's Pappy run I didn't even bother. Now, it's even hard to get the 4R Limited editions when they come out though I did find 2 at Woodman's (of all places) earlier this year.

Lucked into a bottle of Stagg to an almost surreal degree. I have been talking to a few folks and, yeah, a lot of places got a fraction of last year's already small allotment.

I've had OK luck with the antique collection and even Pappy, but I've never managed to get any Four Roses LEs or Elijah Craig 12 Barrel Proof in Chicago. I hear the Old Forester Birthday Bourbon may have come and gone already, too. Given that it's next to impossible to get once ubiquitous bottles like Weller 12 or Elmer T. Lee, I have low to no hopes, but I'm cool with that. If someone wants to work harder than me to get something that gets scarcer and scarcer each year, more power to them. Between bourbon and beer it's incredible any of this stuff even leaves the truck.

Got a little less than usual this year, told my source so long as I could get the Weller and the Stagg I could pass on the rest to allow others to share. Haven't opened them yet. Felt last year that the Weller was the star, hearing from friends that think this year's Stagg is tops. Can't really go wrong with any of them, of course. People get so hung up on the limited releases and tend to ignore the stuff that's right in front of them without all the drama - Stagg Jr at less than $60 is one damn fine bourbon, for example.

tend to ignore the stuff that's right in front of them without all the drama

Well, like I posted, I wish it was this easy, but there are a shocking number of great bourbons that just a couple of years ago were easy to get and now are nowhere or hard to be found. Stagg Jr - not a huge fan, especially at a price that literally less than two years ago could get you Elijah Craig 18. Elijah Craig 12 - that's still a good buy. Even Wild Turkey 101. But Elmer T. Lee, Weller 12 ... these used to be great buys and are now AWOL. Bourbons like Noah's Mill, Willet, etc., used to be (as in, very recently) ubiquitous, now less so. On the flipside there are more and more newbies appearing every month, it seems, but I am dubious, not least because they lack both age statement and distiller info but because they seem outright suspect in how they're exploiting the tight market. Branded with celebrity names, monikers that make them seem old or established, etc. Now, some or many of these new/young/whatever bourbons may be good, but they're really clogging the shelves right now, and I'd happily trade all of them for some of the above that have gone missing.

From what I understand, the Elmer T. is gone for good. Pretty sure I read that the brand had been consolidated away by BT. Of course, this information is impossible to find on their obfuscating website.

I agree that Elijah Craig 12-year is solid. In fact, it may be the best regularly-available, reasonably-priced bourbon one can get these days. In the same vein, I'm also a fan of (stupidly named) Larceny. It's a bit sweet and only 92 proof but perfect when I'm leaning that way. I'm not a fan of Stagg Jr. but the higher proof does hold up well in an Old Fashioned. I don't like it too much on its own, though.

While there are few decent ones out there, I'm generally not a fan of non-Kentucky bourbons. And it seems that most of the newbs on the market are in this category. That's the main reason why I find it hard to get excited about the seemingly incessant stream of new bourbons on the market. They're generally disappointing, with flavor profiles that just don't say 'bourbon' to me.

=R=

The USA bourbon makers and other whiskey's are in a 'Boom' condition similar to the cigar Boom of the 1990's but with worldwide demand up for Bourbon. I don't know when and if there will be a 'Bust'.
I do know that many brands of Bourbon and American Whiskey are flooding the marketplace and one must be careful buying. I't got to be frustrating to read about Pappy's and not be able to get any. I suppose a lot of people walk out with somehting different. They have done a masterful job of marketing Papy's and associated brands. Who knows when the original supply of the oldest Pappy's will/has been replace by Buffalo Trace product?
I don't have any secret sources but I have found a few bourbon's and whiskey that I like and purchase and I just don't purchase any of the new product.-Dick

I tasted something called "Kansas" whiskey yesterday and it was god awful. It was clear, sweet and at 80 proof tasted harsh. worst thing i put in my mouth all week.

The treasure hunt used to be fun since you could occasionally find something - found the EC barrel proof on the regular shelf at Woodman's last year (grabbed 2 bottles- left the others for friends). At the same store I also found a Noe signed bottle of Bakers. Haven't had any true finds for a while now.

There also used to be good (for the price) bottom shelf bourbon if you knew where to look. Remember when Weller 12 was everywhere? And in handles?. On the low end I still see VOB - also found a store in Milwaukee that I can still get Ancient Ancient Age for about $20 (for the moment).

socko wrote:. . . also found a store in Milwaukee that I can still get Ancient Ancient Age for about $20 (for the moment).

I was recently in NC, where the liquor stores are stated-owned and there were countless bottles of AAA there, in all sizes, on the bottom shelf at the one store we visited. My friends and I ended up bringing 3 of the 1.75's home. This was the 10 Star, not the 10 Year but still a great bourbon, especially at that price point. I wish I could have lugged more of them home but that was all the room we had. I'm really going to miss it when it's finally gone for good.

=R=

Craziest thing about the BTAC release this year is what I have to assume are super small allocations.

I like to use Craigslist as the barometer, and there are few bottles even being flipped out there.

OK, three days after my post above I walk through Woodman's and there sits 2014 Old Forester Birthday Bourbon. Take 2 bottles, leave some for the next guy. What do they say about random reinforcement . . .

Do you just zip up to the Kenosha outpost? I sometimes head up there for beer, but have never looked at the booze.

So, how do we feel about the next week for pappy? Week after?

Last year was Nov 13...

I'm actually up in Neenah (Appleton area). The Woodman's here is kind of weird - most of the time they have the usual selection (good, not great). On occasion they get some good stuff (never BTAC or Pappy).

I missed my usual liquor store's (not Wooodman's) allocation of Four Roses Small Batch Limited Edition this week. I know 4R is putting out more bottles than the past but the allocations keep getting smaller . . .