Law Schools...

This is waaaay off topic, but I think the confluence of minds on this site would give me good information about this...

I've been in the professional world for about 5 years, now looking into Law School (yes yes, another lawyer etc...) - Anyone here have any really general tips about looking into schools, the LSAT, my sanity, cost? And why isn't there a public Law School in this city?

Thanks in advance for this wildly general question

aamir

I've looked into law school around Chicago rather extensively, having considered it for some years. The reason I considered it for so long was that I really believe I would enjoy and excel in law school, but feared that I would not want to do the work (and live the life) that would be necessary to pay the loans for private school. The best advice I can give you is to be sure that practicing is what you want to do before you go into serious debt. I ultimately decided that the expense was too great just for an interesting and challenging three years. Perhaps in the future I'll live near a public school and will be able to afford to just go for the fun of it (retirement, probably).

I took a paralegal job at a big firm to get a closer look at the scene and decided it wasn't for me. I found the day-to-day work pretty distasteful, especially the kind that would enable one to pay big private school debt off in a reasonable amount of time (picture long hours of mind-numbing busy work days, nights, weekends and holidays, directed by people who took the same abuse as youngsters and now relish their position on the giving end). I've met so many young attorneys who are doing what they do because they need to pay their loans and who want out. I found it very sad to be at work in the middle of the night, because there were plenty of people there who had small children they rarely saw. On the other hand, if you're single and enjoy the work, there's plenty of it, and lots of money to be made. I've also worked in legal publishing and met many exiles from the same, people with law degrees who didn't want to practice, and I can assure you that there's a heck of a lot less money in legal writing than there is in the practice of law.

I don't mean to be discouraging at all, it just seems to me that too many people go to law school for the wrong reasons (prestige, not knowing what they want to do for work and putting it off for a few more years, fun or ???) and then feel trapped by their choice because they don't actually enjoy the work. Make an informed decision! Good luck!

I think this group is about half lawyers, so you'll get some responses. But let me first answer the one about why there are no public law schools in Chicago. The answer is that the legislature is full of DePaul, Loyola, and John Marshall alums (not to mention a few from Kent, Northwestern and U of C). Every time the possibility of a public law school comes up (and I know Kent has talked about merging with one of the public universities to create a public law school in Chicago) the legislature squashes it immediately.
Which is too bad. Because if you want a law career like mine, in the public interest world where people a) are happy and b) have lives, you can't start off with a ton of student loans. But that may not be what you want.
I also want to echo Holly, who notes that lots of people go to law school for the wrong reasons--most typically because they don't know what else they want to do and because they've been a competent student in the past they think (correctly) that they could handle law school. It's an awful lot of time and money if you don't have a good vision of the career you're looking for once you have the degree.

ab wrote:I've been in the professional world for about 5 years, now looking into Law School (yes yes, another lawyer etc...) - Anyone here have any really general tips about looking into schools, the LSAT, my sanity, cost?

I've just gone through the process you're considering after a lot more years in the workforce than you, and would highly encourage you to take the LSAT. I took the Kaplan course and benefited from their study materials. The LSAT is a major factor used in admissions, and if you are considering law school at all I would encourage you to take the course and practice diligently for the exam.

I was shocked (really shocked) to learn how many law schools offer merit scholarships to lure students to their schools. This could seriously off-set the potential costs you're considering. I won't discuss the particulars on this board, but if you'd like to contact me privately I'll be happy to talk to you about it.

My take is that the world obviously needs more lawyers, and in my case less chemical engineers based on career opportunities available to each group. But more than that you should pursue a career that you will find personally challenging and rewarding. You should do this by speaking to as many lawyers as you can about their field, and ultimately decide if it's for you. But to get into the 2005 admissions cycle you should get going on this. Really.

I'm starting at Kent next month, and would be happy to tell you more about it if you'd like.

Rich4 wrote:

My take is that the world obviously needs more lawyers, and in my case less chemical engineers based on career opportunities available to each group

Funny thing about that - my degree is Envirnomental Engineering, and after 5 or 6 years in the work force I was more than a little bored with Engineering and looking for something else. I decided a Masters in Engineering combined with a Law Degree made sense and went through the application process. With my Engineering degree from IIT, Kent seemed a logical place to go, and I was accepted there, among other places, not sure where as it has been a long time (this was in the 80's).

After extended negotiation, it became clear that although Kent and IIT were titularly part of the same University, there was no way they would work together to allow me to pursue these combined degrees - it would all be on me. My impression, based on recent interaction with colleges with my daughter, is that this has probably changed. I also became disenchanted with the idea of going from being paid to paying someone to work, and submitting myself to more of the mindless machinations of the academic bureaucracy. So I ended up just changing careers by telling an acquaintance that I was interested in what he was doing and could I do it for minimum wage for a few months with an understanding that I would make a real wage once I proved I could do it acceptably?

It did all work out okay, though I think I would have also done pretty well as a combo Environmental Engineer/Attorney (though I am almost certain that career would have moved me away from Chicago, out west, which means my life would have been entirely different as I met my bride here, later).

Anyway, I am all for career change, just be creative and keep in mind that if you are prepared to pay money and time to make the change, that can also be achieved within the work force. Lastly, I would always look for something evolutionary, where you can combine what you know so far with the new skills you are going to add. This gives you a significant head start once you are ready to go back into the workforce full time.

I'd agree with Rich4, who urged you to take the LSAT. The cost is fairly minimal, and you might as well do it as soon as possible if you want to get enrolled in law school in 2005. When I took it, I wasn't particularly sure I wanted to go to law school, but by the time I got my results, and embarked on the application process, I was ready to go.

One caveat, and this is my opinion only--no doubt others will have different views. You didn't say if you wanted to go full or part-time. Kent, DePaul, Loyola, and Marshall offer an evening program, which takes 4 years instead of 3. I went to Kent, and enrolled in the evening program, my rationale being that I would work full-time, and thereby reduce my loan amount. I did it, but did not particularly enjoy it, and wish that I had went full-time. Why? First, law school is labor intensive. There is a huge amount of reading, particularly in your first year, and it can be difficult to keep the motivation going when you are working a forty hour week, going to class for three hours a night, and trying to keep up with your other responsibilities. I would have done better academically if I had focused my attention on school, and bitten the bullet with loans. Second, a full-time job, along with night school, makes it difficult to take advantage of internships, clerkships, and summer associate programs. Certainly, if you do well, and are accepted into the summer associate program of a large law firm after your second or third year of night school, you would be well-advised to quit your current job to accept it. However, not everyone gets into these lucrative positions, and therefore, need to acquire experience in a different way, either through a lower paying clerk position, or through an unpaid internship. With a full-time job, it's very difficult. Third, night school does not offer the same social experience as full-time study, and I don't just mean social in the hanging out at bars, or going out to eat sense. I mean the discussion groups, the study sessions, the ability to take advantage of the various extra-curricular programs offered by the school. As noted above, after a days worth of work and school, most folks just want to go home. YMMV, of course, and I certainly knew people who found the evening program to be just fine, who distinguished themselves academically, and had no problem juggling work and school.

I've been practicing for 9 years now, and I like it. You might too, or you might decide its not for you. Still, a law degree is a useful tool to have, even if you don't practice, or leave practice after a few years. Talk to more people, think about it, and take the LSAT.

1. I also took the evening program, that was after working for two years as a paralegal. Don't do it.

2. I now practice in a small firm and will be happy to discuss the process and the practice in private.

3. It will cost you lunch.

pd

I did an evening program, at Wayne State in Detroit, and wouldn't have done it any other way. Aside from the debt issue (public university and night program!) , I was delighted to have a life that wasn't law school, which I found pretty dreadful (sit in your assigned seat in a big lecture hall, be prepared from random acts of cruelty from your professor, have your whole grade ride on one exam). My professors kept encouraging me to switch to days, for all the reasons JohnM has mentioned, but I enjoyed my job and was happy with the schedule I was on. It ultimately didn't hurt me professionally. Despite not having done law review, etc, I established good relationships with several profs, worked as a TA for one of them, and ultimately got a couple of federal clerkships, including the 7th Circuit one that brought me to Chicago. That was more than enough to get me the public interest career I sought and have enjoyed ever since.
I hope someone who has been involved in hiring in the private sector will chip in here, but I've done lots of public interest hiring. Your choice of law school, your law school record and, in particular, your law review experience, carry a lot of weight with employers. But they are most important in evaluating candidates who've gone straight from undergrad to law school and never done anything else with their lives. I think Rich4 will agree with me that if you've had an interesting life, and in particular if you've held some challenging jobs, you may find yourself with some advantages that haven't occurred to you.
But everyone is right to tell you to take the LSAT now, regardless of where you are in the decision process.

As I assumed, excellent insight from everyone, thank you.

All of these points are relevant to me, I'll try to address some of them.
I'm definitely scheduling the LSAT asap. Tomorrow is my first day of doing extensive research on Law Schools, programs and cost, so I should have a better idea of my direction next week.
The debt is my biggest concern, I undoubtebly would want to keep my day job and take a part-time program out of necessity (mortgage for one). I also realize that Social Law does not pay well, and unless I can find a good grant, this is an area of concern for me. I almost feel if I choose a different field, such as Intellectual Property, I'll be shortchanging my true ambition, but looking at salaries for first year Social Law grads have scared me into considering other options...

I do not fear the long hours, nor the prospect of mind numbing work at times (I'm currently an indexer/editor for WorldBook encyclopedias, speaking of mind numbing) so long as I can achieve certain goals concurrently. All of your comments have brought up valid issues I need to hash out in my mind, and I will be thinking about this over the next few days.

Pdaane, I may take you up on that lunch. Do you work in the loop?

Thanks again everyone for the advice, I'm a sponge right now on this topic so any and all information is quite welcome.

ab wrote:I'm definitely scheduling the LSAT asap. Tomorrow is my first day of doing extensive research on Law Schools, programs and cost, so I should have a better idea of my direction next week.

Being the methodical engineer I am, I have amassed information on every law program in Chicago, as well as many other programs across the country. In fact, I have a whole file drawer on them, and can be persuaded to part with them if you buy me lunch. A chow-worthy lunch.

More importantly here is what you need to do first:
1. Register for the October LSAT on line at LSAC.org. Last year's October LSAT sold out in Chicago, so people signing up late had to travel as far away as Philadelphia just to take the test.

2. Sign up for a Kaplan review course which should begin around Aug 1 in preparation for the October LSAT. It really isn't the actual review course that was most helpful to me, but access to their study materials which includes every LSAT test ever administered. I practiced taking a lot of tests, and that helped me get acclimated to the format and timing.

3. Talk to lawyers in your desired field regarding law school, practice as a lawyer, career, and all that. I can't help you there as all my contacts are in IP.

Good luck

Rich4 wrote:1. Register for the October LSAT on line at LSAC.org. Last year's October LSAT sold out in Chicago, so people signing up late had to travel as far away as Philadelphia just to take the test.

Definitely register asap--he's not kidding. It's important that you take the October test because admissions are rolling and you want to apply as early as possible for the best chance. Moreover, it gives you a back-up chance to take the December test if you're not thrilled with the October results.

Rich4 wrote:2. Sign up for a Kaplan review course which should begin around Aug 1 in preparation for the October LSAT. It really isn't the actual review course that was most helpful to me, but access to their study materials which includes every LSAT test ever administered. I practiced taking a lot of tests, and that helped me get acclimated to the format and timing.

I agree--it's essential that you begin studying as soon as possible, too. Your LSAT will count far too much toward your admission and financial aid--at many schools, over ten times as much as the next most important factor, your GPA. Law schools are rankings whores, you see. But the LSAT, like any other test, can be gimmicked--especially the logic games and logical reasoning sections. Practice will really improve your speed and ability here.

But I'm going to differ with Rich a bit. First, know I'm biased--I did LSAT tutoring through Princeton Review for years. Kaplan's materials use a lot of their own LSAT problems, and frequently they just don't work like a real LSAT. They work for some students, but I've also re-tutored a lot of them. I frankly think that TestMasters offers the best prep program out there, and I'd work for them if I decided to teach LSAT again. http://www.testmasters180.com They are especially good if you're already scoring quite well, and their teachers, in my opinion, are better.

To be frank, the best thing you can do is study on your own. Prep classes will chiefly be helpful if you need discipline to keep yourself studying methodically. You can buy books of actual prep tests used or on eBay--the test hasn't changed in a long time. I'd find a commercial test-prep guide you like, work with that until you get a sense of how you'll approach things, and then start in on the actual LSATs (start with the earliest ones). If you decide you need tutoring or a course, you'll still have the most recent ones--the ones you'll use for practice tests--untouched.

I'm currently a 2L at NU. I'd be happy to talk to you about the whole admissions process, how/when to do things, how to prepare, etc. I kind of miss teaching, so it'd be fun for me. PM me if you'd like.