gnarchief wrote:It must be the young metalhead in me but I've never been to a restaurant that I would categorize as too loud.

And I've never been in a restaurant that I would categorize as to quiet, while there are many restaurants that I will not go to because of the noise level.

2012 NYT article on restaurant noise.

A key sentence that emerges from the article: "Some researchers speculate that what we think of as age-related hearing loss is merely the accumulated damage of a lifetime of noise."

riddlemay wrote:2012 NYT article on restaurant noise.

A key sentence that emerges from the article: "Some researchers speculate that what we think of as age-related hearing loss is merely the accumulated damage of a lifetime of noise."

Who was credited with that brilliant observation? Was it Capt. Obvious.?

stevez wrote:Who was credited with that brilliant observation? Was it Capt. Obvious.?

Taking your question at face value, Steve, the author was Katherine Bouton.

Taking your question with the sarcasm with which it was intended (hey, no one appreciates good snark more than me), I'll simply say that while the observation may be obvious to you and me, the evidence shows that it is certainly not obvious to the thousands who crowd noisy restaurants. I simply don't believe that those thousands would knowingly make the choice to trade off their long-term hearing health for the pleasure of a noisy restaurant. They can only do it because they lack the knowledge. If the Ghost of Hearing-Impairment Future could visit them in a dream, I have little doubt that many would choose differently.

riddlemay wrote:I simply don't believe that those thousands would knowingly make the choice to trade off their long-term hearing health for the pleasure of a noisy restaurant. They can only do it because they lack the knowledge. If the Ghost of Hearing-Impairment Future could visit them in a dream, I have little doubt that many would choose differently.

I think this is a bit of a straw man argument since, based on all the links posted above, one typically doesn't spend enough time in a restaurant for the decibel levels (even at the loudest of restaurants) to cause long-term hearing damage. In other words eating in a loud restaurant may damage your evening but it won't damage your hearing.

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ronnie_suburban wrote:

riddlemay wrote:I simply don't believe that those thousands would knowingly make the choice to trade off their long-term hearing health for the pleasure of a noisy restaurant. They can only do it because they lack the knowledge. If the Ghost of Hearing-Impairment Future could visit them in a dream, I have little doubt that many would choose differently.

I think this is a bit of a straw man argument since, based on all the links posted above, one typically doesn't spend enough time in a restaurant for the decibel levels (even at the loudest of restaurants) to cause long-term hearing damage. In other words eating in a loud restaurant may damage your evening but it won't damage your hearing.

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One evening won't cause long-term hearing damage, but regularly going to loud restaurants could contribute to it. As stated previously it's the accumulated damage caused by a lifetime of noise.

George R wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:

riddlemay wrote:I simply don't believe that those thousands would knowingly make the choice to trade off their long-term hearing health for the pleasure of a noisy restaurant. They can only do it because they lack the knowledge. If the Ghost of Hearing-Impairment Future could visit them in a dream, I have little doubt that many would choose differently.

I think this is a bit of a straw man argument since, based on all the links posted above, one typically doesn't spend enough time in a restaurant for the decibel levels (even at the loudest of restaurants) to cause long-term hearing damage. In other words eating in a loud restaurant may damage your evening but it won't damage your hearing.

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One evening won't cause long-term hearing damage, but regularly going to loud restaurants could contribute to it. As stated previously it's the accumulated damage caused by a lifetime of noise.

Perhaps but no more than attending concerts or sporting events, or mowing one's lawn . . . or all sorts of other activities that people do all the time.

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i've heard countless stories of musicians and dj's developing hearing loss and some of the big name glamour dj's get extremely painful short term hearing loss and have to use visualizers to do their jobs and mix records and there is a custom earplug industry for a reason.

I love this topic and I hate noisy restaurants. I'd love to find some place that is quiet for once to enjoy a dinner. Unfortunately quiet places are usually empty places which means not too popular. I like to carry on a conversation at a low volume and enjoy my food. Any and all recommendations are welcome.

toria wrote:I love this topic and I hate noisy restaurants. I'd love to find some place that is quiet for once to enjoy a dinner. Unfortunately quiet places are usually empty places which means not too popular. I like to carry on a conversation at a low volume and enjoy my food. Any and all recommendations are welcome.

Any such suggestions are best posted on the thread l've linked to below (as they'd probably just get lost on this thread):

Quiet Restaurarant

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Thank you for the link!

Obviously, while I have company on this thread (and in the audiology/ENT community) in realizing that repeated exposure to excessive levels of restaurant noise can cause hearing damage over the course of a lifetime, others remain resistant to the idea. Therefore, rather than go round in circles, I can see two subjects that justify continued discussion:

1. Links to articles, studies, or other substantiation, when such occur, that buttress the connection.

2. The reporting of personal experiences with restaurants that are too loud, so that we can continue compiling a list of places to avoid.

Don't mean to rule out other avenues of discussion if they occur to anybody, but those two seem most fruitful to me.

I think that making a list of restaurants that are subjectively too loud is fine because, well, why not? We're all about preferences here.

But unless one is going to actually measure decibel levels, average length of customer visit and myriad other data, it's completely unfounded -- and bordering on irresponsible -- to even suggest that eating at any restaurant is dangerous. In the end, that's where I part ways with this thread.

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ronnie_suburban wrote:I think that making a list of restaurants that are subjectively too loud is fine because, well, why not? We're all about preferences here.

But unless one is going to actually measure decibel levels, average length of customer visit and myriad other data, it's completely unfounded -- and bordering on irresponsible -- to even suggest that eating at any restaurant is dangerous. In the end, that's where I part ways with this thread.

Agree completely. That's why I've done the thing you say is OK, and not done the thing you say isn't.

My posts have been of two kinds: 1) About restaurants I found subjectively too loud. 2) In reference to OSHA rules, studies, and articles in the popular press about the connection between restaurant noise and dangerous decibel levels. I haven't connected 1) and 2) in such a way as to assert "Restaurant X is causing hearing loss." Nor would I suggest anyone else do so. That is a matter for employees to bring before OSHA.

riddlemay wrote:That is a matter for employees to bring before OSHA.

Early on, I decided I didn't have the time, interest or expertise to get involved in this discussion, but figured I might as well finish writing something (not well researched) I started a week ago regarding OSHA regulations.

riddlemay wrote:Article from LA Times measuring noise level in restaurants.

Turns out the noise level in some places really is in excess of OSHA limits as forwarded by boudreaulicious, depending on the number of hours an employee is exposed.

Reading the same sources, I came to the opposite conclusion: that it's unlikely the places in the Los Angeles Times noisiest restaurants survey exceed OSHA limits. Sure, if employees are exposed for a full 40 hours a week to the peak levels recorded at 2 of the restaurants they'd be barely over the limit, but I find it hard to believe that's the situation. That's not to say there might not be risks to employees' hearing; I'm simply addressing the question of whether OSHA limits are being exceeded. And I'm sure the LAT article isn't the last word on restaurant noise level measurements.

In "Occupational Noise Exposure" OSHA, part of the Department of Labor wrote:OSHA sets legal limits on noise exposure in the workplace. These limits are based on a worker's time weighted average over an 8 hour day. With noise, OSHA's permissible exposure limit (PEL) is 90 dBA for all workers for an 8 hour day.

The LAT article found two restaurants with sound levels over 90 decibels: Picca at 90.1 and A-Frame at 90.3 (I assume these are peak levels, "noise snapshots" as the reporter says). So these intensities are clearly in excess of what is allowed for an 8-hour period. But it seems unlikely to me these levels would be maintained for that long. The limit is time weighted, with an "exchange rate" of 5 decibels, so it would take a level of 95 decibels over 4 hours to exceed OSHA's limit.

OSHA's legal limit is higher than NIOSH's recommendation of 85 decibels over eight hours.

In "Criteria for a Recommended Standard" NIOSH, part of the Centers for Disease Control wrote:The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has recommended that all worker exposures to noise should be controlled below a level equivalent to 85 dBA for eight hours to minimize occupational noise induced hearing loss.

NIOSH now recommends an exchange rate of 3, meaning 85 decibels for 8 hours would be equivalent to 91 decibels for 2 hours. So some of these 90-plus-decibel restaurants may be close to, or over, NIOSH's recommended maximum levels, depending how sound intensity varies over a working shift. But NIOSH's recommendations carry no legal authority; they're simply suggestions for OSHA to consider. It might be worth noting the recommendations were issued in 1972 and revised in 1998 so it appears OSHA is in no hurry. But, who knows, sometime in the future hearing protection may be required for workers at particularly noisy restaurants.

riddlemay wrote:
1. Links to articles, studies, or other substantiation, when such occur, that buttress the connection.

How about evidence against the connection? Allowed?

Darren72 wrote:

riddlemay wrote:
1. Links to articles, studies, or other substantiation, when such occur, that buttress the connection.

How about evidence against the connection? Allowed?

Of course. But maybe those should go in the thread for Quiet Restaurants.

I guess I don't understand why this is a thing. We all know restaurants can be loud. We also know that it can be avoided. If you don't want to be subject to it, don't eat there. There's plenty of info out there to help you figure out which places may have an acceptable noise level--same as those who seek vegetarian- or child- or gluten-free friendly options. Not sure why this requires waging a war. Even an employee in such an establishment has options--you can buy noise-filtering ear plugs on Amazon for under $12...come to think of it, that might help with some of the other negatives endured by restaurant staff.

boudreaulicious wrote:I guess I don't understand why this is a thing. We all know restaurants can be loud. We also know that it can be avoided. If you don't want to be subject to it, don't eat there. There's plenty of info out there to help you figure out which places may have an acceptable noise level--same as those who seek vegetarian- or child- or gluten-free friendly options. Not sure why this requires waging a war.

Is a war being waged? Not to my perception. My original post called for others to share their subjective experiences of restaurants they consider beyond the pale in loudness, so that we could compile a kind of "consumer guide" of such places. I'm not sure I agree there's an abundance of info on that subject, but even if some exists, it can hardly hurt to gather more of it.

In your OSHA post of 12/10, in which your interpretation was that loud restaurant noise could be (your words) "potentially harmful to those subjected to it for long periods of time on a daily basis," I felt that you were in agreement that restaurant noise is a "thing." If I misunderstood your intent or meaning, boudreaulicious, I apologize, but I thought it was pretty clear. In any case, the replies of some about their own restaurant experiences have been useful, and I hope more will come.

"Some researchers speculate that"

I hate sentences that begin like that as much as I hate loud restaurants.

Roger Ramjet wrote:

"Some researchers speculate that"

I hate sentences that begin like that as much as I hate loud restaurants.

I get it. At least I can blame that sentence on the New York Times instead of having to "mea culpa" for it myself.

I am suffering from hearing loss, virtually deaf in my left ear and getting there in my right ear. Shortly before going to Kona Grill in Lincolnshire last year with a group of former coworkers for their happy hour half-priced appetizers, my right ear started acting up making everybody sound like a robot voice with distortion. I wear a hearing aid in that ear and heard the same distortion whether the aid was in or out.

At Kona Grill they have a floor of uneven flagstone and heavy cast-iron stools and chairs which when moved across the floor would emit an extremely loud scraping noise that would cause my eardrum to spasm and was extremely painful. The continual din from the crowd ensured that I couldn't hear anything anybody was saying unless they yelled it out to me. As the dining and bar area filled up there was much more chair scraping and other noise making it unbearable.

For months after, every couple days I would have spells where I would have the sound of horns and bells ringing in my ear for several hours. Now I only get these spells maybe once a week. I've signed up for a lip reading course.

Noise in restaurants not dangerous? I am living proof that it is!

Are restaurants too loud? The ins and outs of restaurant acoustics

http://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/ct ... story.html

Found a new candidate for loudest restaurant I won't go back to because of just that-- Parachute. Liked the food. Hated leaning forward and yelling throughout my entire meal to my countermates and can't relate to eating in that manner.

As an FYI, Apple's newest iPhone update, iOS 12 adds a "Live Listen" feature that you can use with Air Pods. It allows you to use the iPhone to amplify conversations:

https://www.inverse.com/article/49236-i ... id-feature

Takes a little tech, but it allows people who have difficulty in louder environments to carry on conversations. It really amplifies even faint speech (so you can use it to eavesdrop, if you're ethically challenged).

Think there's coupon in AARP mag for it.

Jazzfood wrote:Think there's coupon in AARP mag for it.

Bwah!!

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https://blockclubchicago.org/2018/10/03 ... for-noise/

a good article in the atlantic on this subject:

How Restaurants Got So Loud

Thanks for sharing the link Jazzfood. Interesting!

Click on the link in the article to see some great photos of restaurants from the 1950s-1970s.